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The new grass... is not meant to taxi over !


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now im not a full scale pilot IRL, so i don't know how one of these ww11 heavy metal beasts would actually handle such rough taxi. i have driven cars my whole life, and done quite a bit of off-road endeavors in jeeps and motorcycles (and bicycles).

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so...i'm kinda leaning towards the feeling that the planes (fighters especially) don't seem to have enough damping in their suspension/shocks. it does tend to 'bounce' a bit too much, as if the suspension lost too much damping and began to behave as a spring. maybe im wrong. and maybe the suspension of that day was far from being as good as today (no doubt)?

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i didn't think this way for a while, but the other day when trying to get out of the grass, the bouncing did seem a bit exaggerated.

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pretty much my conclusion Reflect ;)

 

 

I would think this is hard to argue against... or is it?  :cool:

 

I agree, I think it is representative of the vast majority of land surfaces. I should think that landing in a field that had been ploughed anytime in the last ten years, scrub wasteland in Africa etc would be very bumpy and dangerous.

 

It is simply that the maps contain two relevant exceptions:

 

1) Natural steppe grasslands (still there, lurking in the east - whether they should be present between the Don and Volga as well is a separate question).

2) Areas on designated airfields off the main strip and taxiways. We have been repeatedly told that airfields were carefully prepared, leveled, rolled etc. The question of bomb damage is a legitimate one: but of course not all airstrips were damaged all the time. Crater and wreck objects with appropriate characteristics would model this better as well as being a useful mission making resource. 

 

No-one is arguing that the developers should drop everything else and work on this as a priority - they are simply points that became very obvious as soon as you start to use the new maps, so I offered suggestions that IMHO, based on the evidence to hand, would offer an improvement in realism. 

 

I had thought that that was part of the point of these forum threads.

Edited by unreasonable
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I see your point unreasonable, but I have to disagree about airfields: I don't think - my 2 cents - they had the manpower and/or time to carefully level the entire area of an airfield. That's why they had taxiways. "Taxi here and not elsewhere". If the entire area had been safe they wouldn't have had to bother with those. While the other areas of an airfield might not have been as bumpy as in game now, I think it's still closer to reality than what we had before.

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I agree, I think it is representative of the vast majority of land surfaces. I should think that landing in a field that had been ploughed anytime in the last ten years, scrub wasteland in Africa etc would be very bumpy and dangerous.

 

It is simply that the maps contain two relevant exceptions:

 

1) Natural steppe grasslands (still there, lurking in the east - whether they should be present between the Don and Volga as well is a separate question).

2) Areas on designated airfields off the main strip and taxiways. We have been repeatedly told that airfields were carefully prepared, leveled, rolled etc. The question of bomb damage is a legitimate one: but of course not all airstrips were damaged all the time. Crater and wreck objects with appropriate characteristics would model this better as well as being a useful mission making resource. 

 

No-one is arguing that the developers should drop everything else and work on this as a priority - they are simply points that became very obvious as soon as you start to use the new maps, so I offered suggestions that IMHO, based on the evidence to hand, would offer an improvement in realism. 

 

I had thought that that was part of the point of these forum threads.

 

I agree. I appreciate your input.. as I am sure most others are as well.... besides; if we were NOT suggesting stuff or discussing things.... we would never have a living forum,

 

cheers.

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You only bounce in the long grass if you taxi too fast, though you do seem to need a lot of power to move, IRL you'd pick up all sorts of rubbish in the prop wash and risk damaging the aircraft, I always try and use the taxi ways. We have the lovely maps that have been produced that show the airfield layouts, but it would be good to know somehow where you have spawned, save a lot of time blundering around looking for the runway, pilots would have known where their dispersals and runways are, and if they didn't the ground crew would.

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I saw a perfect GA aviation landing a few years ago next to a highway B14 in Winnenden, Germany. Engine fialure and landing on grass pasture. I think it was a Piper. Landend perfectly with gear down until full stop. Maybe it was luck but I heard lots of storiies like that. Even landing in corn fields. Forced landing but with no or no significant damage to the plane. Taildraggers as well.

Edited by indiaciki
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I saw a perfect GA aviation landing a few years ago next to a highway B14 in Winnenden, Germany. Engine fialure and landing on grass pasture. I think it was a Piper. Landend perfectly with gear down until full stop. Maybe it was luck but I heard lots of storiies like that. Even landing in corn fields. Forced landing but with no or no significant damage to the plane. Taildraggers as well.

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2 things i wonder about:

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1). how hard is this dirt at the airfields, and how deep are these ruts? for a plane to bounce like some do, it seems like the dirt would need to be sufficiently hard to avoid giving way and letting the tires push some sort of track through. your example of plowed fields or grass pastures have a high possibility of being soft enough to accomodate, or smooth enough.

2). suspension: i have had a bit of experience with cars/bikes with poor suspension. it is quite amazing how bad the ride can be, especially comparing the same course with a better equipped vehicle. even to the point of becoming airborn or losing control where a better suspension makes the driver/rider think there is nothing there.

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i have off road experience in all kinds of terrain (but not in the russian steppes), plowed fields and pastures included, also mountains, swamps, deserts, rock/sandstone. personally i have not seen anything that would bounce consistently in this manner continuously across the whole field. in some of the high plains 'deserts', you have to be darn careful just blasting though because of large ruts and deep erosion ditches that can surprise you (and they can easily destroy you), but they are not like plowed furrows.

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personally, i might lean towards the devs intentionally discouraging pilot's disregard for the runways. in that case, i think they have employed quite a good balance of pain vs gain for using a shortcut. but sometimes we all stray, and it sometimes gets ugly when you get stuck - last night i witnessed SHRAPS getting a pe2 stuck in the snow (required respawn)  trying to go around wreckage that was blocking the taxiway. does that add a demerit to the feature? i don't know for sure - could go both ways.

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i think something that might help, especially seeing the mahem, is to widen the taxi ways a little if they are not directly adjacent to the spawn pits. also, it is obvious that taxi direction is completely a decision of the pilot, who may be just guessing many times. i have felt the sting of choosing the 'wrong' direction and taxiing for about 6km to the runway. i don't know if there is some kind of mission editor feature that would suffice to be a traffic controller, including a taxi director, but it would seem that IRL would have these things....

.... of course, there is still the issue of many pilots having great tribulation attempting to taxi at all. everyone knows practice makes perfect, but there will always be the 'unpracticed' that make artwork all across the pits and taxiways. i wonder how many plane supply quantities are diminished right there in the pits?

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I can understand the frustrationof having to taxi 6 km when making the wrong 'decision' and it prompted me to download

 

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15105-bos-airfields-reference/


 

either have this on a tablet, phone, or print it out, or open it prior to launching the game and alt tab and have a quick look,

 

Note the Airfield you are spawning at, and you're heading and layout of the apron, with this info check the airfield layout chart with runway headings it is then easy to avoid the 'wrong turn'

 

the short time taken is much better than the "Loong Taxi"

 

post-6177-0-85909100-1447392006_thumb.jpg

 

A northerly heading shows you are on the Eastern apron and need to turn right for quickest route to runway

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited by Dakpilot
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I can understand the frustrationof having to taxi 6 km when making the wrong 'decision' and it prompted me to download

 

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15105-bos-airfields-reference/

 

either have this on a tablet, phone, or print it out, or open it prior to launching the game and alt tab and have a quick look,

 

Note the Airfield you are spawning at, and you're heading and layout of the apron, with this info check the airfield layout chart with runway headings it is then easy to avoid the 'wrong turn'

 

the short time taken is much better than the "Loong Taxi"

 

attachicon.gifairfield.JPG

 

A northerly heading shows you are on the Eastern apron and need to turn right for quickest route to runway

 

Cheers Dakpilot

we need a mobile app with this and the map too would be cool to be used in a tablet or win 10 notebook

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I'm currently reading the memoirs of a Hungarian fighter pilot. He lost his best friend who landed on a field gears down. His 109 flipped on its back, caught fire, and he was burned alive.

 

He mentioned how stupid this mistake was, because it was common sense and also an order to belly land if  it's not an airfield.

 

Then again, in another book I read the story of another RHAF pilot whose friend was shot down over the Soviet Union. He landed in the deep snow, jettisoned the canopy and his parachute, and took off with the 2 of them in the cockpit while the Soviet infantry was running towards them. That book also mentions that it was close to a miracle, nobody should ever attempt to reproduce that landing.

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Reflected, there are also some stories in Over Fields of Fire involving Il-2s doing rough field landings. The ones which stick out was Yegorova herself in a training flight landing near a ravine and managing to break just before the aircraft fell in, and another incident where an Il-2 landed in the middle of the front lines to pick up a crew of two that had crash landed but survived in one piece. The bumping and jolting all over the place are described though, and if you look at the Il-2's tires you can see they are very wide and usually have low pressure. I'm no expert but this should help a lot with such stunts, while they still remain one-offs.

 

Konyakhin's plane touched down very close to Khukhlin's Il, jolted over humps and bumps and stopped. The Fascists, scenting a double prize, rushed into another attack, but Berdashkevich and his group drove them off again. (...) Khukhlin set fire to his badly damaged Il, ran to his friend's plane and climbed into the rear cockpit with his gunner. Konyakhin turned his machine around, gave it full gas and a boost, and the Sturmovik rushed at the panicked Hitlerite sub-machine-gunners and then climbed into the sky.

 

Later Andrey (Konyakhin) told how after the take-off he began to doubt whether he had enough fuel to make it home. He glanced back at the gunner's cockpit and went numb - two legs were sticking out of it next to the machine-gun! Dumbfounded, he didn't understand at first that it was his own gunner, who had jumped into the already occupied cockpit on the run and had not managed to turn around in the tight space - he'd got stuck upside-down.

 

After the landing the engine stalled. Everyone who was at the aerodrome rushed to the motionless Sturmovik. They pulled one aerial gunner from the rear cockpit, then the other, then the pilot. Konyakhin was sitting in his cockpit, pale, his head thrown back on the protective screen, his eyes closed, his wet curly hair stuck to his temples.

 

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I read in a book several years ago, that in the German invasion of France in 1940, the airfields the Luftwaffe used almost moved forward on daily base. They several times just found new places, random grass-fields they could spot form above. It was not until that they landed they found out that the fields were covered with very high grass. As Galland said, they had to plough their way though it when landing and taxiing, and there by creating runways with their aircraft's.

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In gliders, on most cases, the trick when landing out is full nose down.... On these ww2 birds I've found the best is to use full rudder and opposite aileron to make a "terrain sideslip " :-)

 

A.K.A "The Kalifornisch" (Short for "The Great Cailfornian Sideslip") in period Luftwaffe jargon. It was a real tactic for short field landings.

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