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Gomwolf

Battle of Stalingrad is awesome.

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Except stupidest FM ever.

 

If you guys think it is whining, I don't care. Think it what you want.

I saw T-34 gameplay demo vid today. It was awesome. Yeah 777 is really awesome at game making, except making FM.

 

When BoS released first I was almost crazy. I thought 'Finally, successor of 1946 is arrived!!!' Yeah. It was awesome. It have awesome graphics, awesome FMs, DMs, and awesome game system... Actually singleplay campaign was not good, but I didn't care about that. I bought premium edition(Even I was in military service!) Until 1.008 update, I played it everyday I could, make more than 40 videos and upload it to youtube. After 1.008 update, Yak-1 became a UFO. It didn't stall with flap down(even it have only full flap down), only more lift for turning. It can climb like UFO, and It never lost its control in high speed, even they have no horn balance on the control surface. Even I upload the soviet official documents about mock fight between Bf109F and Yak-1 with M-105PF, they ignored it. Even I saw a dev(I will not say his or her callsign, just it started 'D') call the players who claim about Yak-1s FM the 'luftwhiners' and it is most accurated FM ever he saw. He also said 'FM is managed by 1C, so do not claim it to 777.' Yes I lost most hope about BoS at that time. 

 

Maybe they want change history. Maybe they do not want know the facts that russians lost far more aircrafts than german in their 'Great Petriotic War'. They do not want know german pilots thought they still can operate normally on eastern front in 1945(Yeah galland and bär said that.). However I want, we want play more realistic air combat in combat flight simulation game.

 

I know, Lots of Yak lovers will come here and call me luftwhiner, and this thread will be erased soon. Maybe I will be banned from this forum. 

 

However, I really want to talk about this. I was loved this game once, and if it will be recovered, I will love this game again.

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Well, you are whining. Especially with the lot of non-sequiturs.

 

Perhaps you should try not stalling out your plane so the Yak isn't flying around sub 230km/h for it to fully deploy flaps?

Perhaps you should realize the Macchi has the same "flap behavior" as the Yak?

Perhaps you should stay above 4km where the German aircraft are better?

Perhaps you should manage your speed/energy state better?

 

 

The 190 was a Jabo on the Eastern front as well. The 109s were used in the fighter role. The commonly referenced 190A3/A4 vs SpitfireVb reference, a single sentence mind you, was a squadron vs squadron engagement. Get a squadron of 190s together, and use them to their advantage, you'll find it's a much better outcome than a squadron of 109s. Unless it devolves into an on-the-deck turn fight, which for some it almost always does. If that is where someone's engagements always end up, then its not the plane you have to point fingers at.

 

It's always funny seeing the complaints about the Yak. It inevitably comes down to, you just aren't as good as you think you are. The only reason so many Axis players hate the Yak is because it isn't an easy kill, easily dominated, and easily shot down. But the rest are.

 

 

I know, I'm a Yak lover. Or whatever.

 

There hasn't been any data presented to show a) the flaps are wrong, or b) that the Yak should be a piece of crap. Actually, b is refuted by German aces that fully respected the aircraft. The only unfortunate thing for the Yak early in the war was quality of pilots. Which seems to be the issue here, apparently the higher quality is on the wrong side.

Edited by FuriousMeow
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Does the Yak-1's FM become a bit screwy with flaps down? Yes. Does it break the game? No.

 

Apart from this one issue, the FM in this sim is pretty darned amazing. Especially considering that the AI flies with exactly the same FM that we do.

 

And sure, the SP campaign was not what we all had hoped for, but that point has pretty much been rendered moot with the beta release of PWCG, which promises to be pretty much everything you could demand from a career mode.

 

This is by far the best bang for your buck you're gonna get, if you're into WW2 flight sims.

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The flaps on the Yak, are not always fully deployed - depends on "q", so, just like in DCS  am able to deploy my P51d flaps and see them retract as I gain speed, the same happens with Yak-1 s in BoS.

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Yeah. Even Soviet documents told Bf109F better turn than Yak-1 and It never suggest flap down when they combat with it, but maybe BoS FM is right. Maybe.

Edited by =Bout1=Gomwolf_K_

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About the Fw-190 Jabo role in eastern front. It was used as a replacement for Stuka and suited that role due better damage resistance than the Bf-109. There were no better plane available for that role. Not because it was worse as a fighter than Messerschmitt. As a fighter it was considered superior to Bf-109 but it was not possible to turn all production to the Fw-190 caused by the war situation. Germans needed planes fast from production lines and Messerschmitt did that. And the fact that F-versions were more armored and flown by former Stuka pilots so I would leave those out of these conversations. 

 

Majority of the Focke Wulfs were against the Western allies for a reason. Germans wanted their best fighters to protect their homeland from devastating air attacks.  

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Nice experiment, but I think you should also have tried a setting where the Bf109 was free to change flaps during combat. Also maybe the Bf109 should have used a bit of flaps, but not so much as 50% and 100%. The test 50% showed it was already too much. The plane slowed too much and had a hard time staying in the air.

 

I remember isolated cases before the flaps changes, when the yak-1 was inferior to the bf109 at low speed, where I managed to win a few turn fights. If you don' try to get on your enemy's six, and focus on maintaining status quo while keeping speed and altitude, a greedy opponent will sometimes sacrifice speed and altitude to get on your six. So in other words, account for pilot differences and swap seats when doing the experiment.

 

Before this thread gets out of control, could someone post links to technical descriptions of the pneumatic system of the yak-1 flaps? I seem to remember they were posted on the Russian forums.

 

The thing is, you can't really discard technical information based on combat reports. The devs have said, I believe, that for them the order of priority for references were blueprints and performance data first, and pilot experiences last.

 

I would like to hear if devs would consider making the flaps controlled by a three-stages lever (expand, retract, neutral), as that was apparently how it worked in reality (but I have no reference for that, so if someone has them, again please feel free to post them here). That would make it a bit more difficult to use the flaps during combat on the yak, and may well be one of the reasons they were not used. Then there is the question of reliability. Was it advisable to keep extending retracting flaps multiple times during a mission? Didn't you risk jamming one of them at some point?

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We have very accurate FM, and yea not perfect because it's impossible to reproduce exactly the reality even with the best dev ever.

 

So stop whining for nothing one day you will break the game... And you know it ! 

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@-IRRE-ICARE

 

did you ever fly in real as a pilot?

 

Sorry I must ask that.... Dont feel bothered...

 

Not a whiner at my side, but I understand that Posts of other ...

 

in example:

Its a little bit unrealistic if full released flaps in Bf109 only jam´s  at highspeed 700 KM/h,

where you can read in BF109 E7  "dont use full flaps above 250 KM/h"

 

 

 

We have very accurate FM, and yea not perfect because it's impossible to reproduce exactly the reality even with the best dev ever.

 

So stop whining for nothing one day you will break the game... And you know it ! 

Edited by RoteDreizehn

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This is going nowhere good. Please comment specifically on FM issues in the appropriate place. It would help your case if you refrained from saying things like "stupidest FM ever".

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OP: IMHO: YAK-1 is overmodeled. Not the germans have the superior planes like its supposed to be in this theater. The russians have the superior planes. I know 109 can fly a tad faster and climb a tad better. But by such a small margin that over all in the encounters that happen on onlineservers in 99% of all cases the YAK-1 just has the better cards. If you ask me this is a marketingdecision because the portion of the customers that prefer to fly "allied" planes is bigger than the portion that likes to fly the evil german side. So its a simple decision of satisfying customers. And i can even understand it from a standpoint of a company that needs to make revenue in order to please its investors.

BUT: Going ahead and telling everyone that everything is modeled historically accurate when most available sources and anecdotal stories tells otherwise is just kind of (for the lack of a less extreme word) "ignorant". Just a little example that just doesnt want to go into my head. The BAR(s) (every 190 pilot knows what i am talking about) were NOT visible in the real thing. There is no plausible reason to leave them in place but restricting the anyways bad forward visibility of the 190 even more. Go figure...

I for my part still like the game (not calling it sim anymore since its not a sim in my opinion) even if i am getting more grey hair evertime i fly.

Just get into the cockpit of your desired plane and try to win anyways. Train, train, train. Flying the german side is far more rewarding than flying the easymode red crates. With the germans there is everything that an immersive FM needs. Not just "stick in stomach wussy virtual flying like you get when flying the woodcrates".

And even with the ever growing red depots that not even the gigantic bombs of the german heinkels can kill if not flown in a whole formation its just getting more and more rewarding if the germans manage to win one out of 1 rounds.

 

EDIT: FYI OP: The FMs were much more accurate once. But that resulted in hardly anyone flying the red side and I assume bad sales. Changing the FMs led to (at least at the times that i fly) at least as many reds flying (if not more) and i guess much better sales.

 

All in all there is reason for everything being created as it is. And there is nothing left but live with it or move on. We keep getting told "bring hard evidence and you concern might be considered". But Ze Hairys efforts on 190 performance show that this does not help as well.

Edited by Winger
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I have complained as much as anyone about aspects of the FM, particularly the way the 190 is represented (and Winger is absolutely correct - why on earth has the 'bar' in the 190 not as yet been fixed ??) so I can understand the OP's frustration.  However, as things currently stand, (and of course the FM are always being tweeked so what works now may not two weeks from now) I personally think the 190 (I don't fly the 109 so I can't really comment) has the capacity to take down any of the Soviet machines in one on one combat - if flown a certain way.  I still think the aircraft's roll is too slow and I agree with Hairy about the climb but those things aside, the BoS 190 is an extremely capable fighter despite what Furious M would have you believe.

 

I had a look at the turn tests conducted by the OP and I think they're interesting (and maybe they indicate that there's an issue and maybe they don't, I'm not sure) but why would anyone willingly take a 109 or a 190 into sustained turning contest with a Soviet machine in the first place?  We know that a few guys, like Max Ostermann, were known for it but he and the other 'turners' were very much the exception and of course he was unfortunately killed.  But generally speaking, the reality is that historically, as in the game, turning with the Soviets is a mistake. 

Edited by Wulf
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If you ask me this is a marketingdecision because the portion of the customers that prefer to fly "allied" planes is bigger than the portion that likes to fly the evil german side. So its a simple decision of satisfying customers. And i can even understand it from a standpoint of a company that needs to make revenue in order to please its investors.

 

 

That's just plain wrong whether it is BOS, CloD or DCS WW2. It's not uncommon for people to heavily side up with the German planes in those games and not uncommon to see 30% more German flyers then Allied in a game.

 

"Why can't I see anyone?" *looks at teamscores* "oh wait its 21 vs 14"

 

Considering most of the time teams are roughly even disproves that anyway.

Edited by RoflSeal
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@-IRRE-ICARE

 

did you ever fly in real as a pilot?

 

Sorry I must ask that.... Dont feel bothered...

 

Not a whiner at my side, but I understand that Posts of other ...

 

in example:

Its a little bit unrealistic if full released flaps in Bf109 only jam´s  at highspeed 700 KM/h,

where you can read in BF109 E7  "dont use full flaps above 250 KM/h"

 

Yea i am a young pilot i fly one time per week. And I didn't try to use flaps at 700km/h so if it's true i understand.

 

 

OP: IMHO: YAK-1 is overmodeled. Not the germans have the superior planes like its supposed to be in this theater. The russians have the superior planes. I know 109 can fly a tad faster and climb a tad better. But by such a small margin that over all in the encounters that happen on onlineservers in 99% of all cases the YAK-1 just has the better cards. If you ask me this is a marketingdecision because the portion of the customers that prefer to fly "allied" planes is bigger than the portion that likes to fly the evil german side. So its a simple decision of satisfying customers. And i can even understand it from a standpoint of a company that needs to make revenue in order to please its investors.

BUT: Going ahead and telling everyone that everything is modeled historically accurate when most available sources and anecdotal stories tells otherwise is just kind of (for the lack of a less extreme word) "ignorant". Just a little example that just doesnt want to go into my head. The BAR(s) (every 190 pilot knows what i am talking about) were NOT visible in the real thing. There is no plausible reason to leave them in place but restricting the anyways bad forward visibility of the 190 even more. Go figure...

I for my part still like the game (not calling it sim anymore since its not a sim in my opinion) even if i am getting more grey hair evertime i fly.

Just get into the cockpit of your desired plane and try to win anyways. Train, train, train. Flying the german side is far more rewarding than flying the easymode red crates. With the germans there is everything that an immersive FM needs. Not just "stick in stomach wussy virtual flying like you get when flying the woodcrates".

And even with the ever growing red depots that not even the gigantic bombs of the german heinkels can kill if not flown in a whole formation its just getting more and more rewarding if the germans manage to win one out of 1 rounds.

 

EDIT: FYI OP: The FMs were much more accurate once. But that resulted in hardly anyone flying the red side and I assume bad sales. Changing the FMs led to (at least at the times that i fly) at least as many reds flying (if not more) and i guess much better sales.

 

All in all there is reason for everything being created as it is. And there is nothing left but live with it or move on. We keep getting told "bring hard evidence and you concern might be considered". But Ze Hairys efforts on 190 performance show that this does not help as well.

 

But when i read that the Yak-1 is superior or easy mod plane campared to 109 it's a big joke. 

Edited by -IRRE-Icare

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Yeah. Even Soviet documents told Bf109F better turn than Yak-1 and It never suggest flap down when they combat with it, but maybe BoS FM is right. Maybe.

every plane only fly's as good as its pilot.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DDi_yPh4F3g&list=PL4deh2s83dAaonmYOHBsGz5GpJI8Grc-H

 

Yeah. Even Soviet documents told Bf109F better turn than Yak-1 and It never suggest flap down when they combat with it, but maybe BoS FM is right. Maybe.

 

 

What yak, which serie ? what conditions ? what was the state of aircraft tested etc....

 

People seem to forget the yak serie 69 is almost the yak 1b, expet for the tear drop canopy ...

 

Just go there : http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/pilots/?tour=2

 

and look at the stats from the different online pilots .... you'll have surpprises :D

 

As for the 109 was better etc .... Would you say the 1942 Spitfire was on par with 1942 german planes ? Most probably yes, in our westerners mind.

 

-> Pilots who flew both airplanes, claim that the yak was better than spitfire.... (Normandie Niemen pilots, who are far from being amateur ;) )

Again, the conception we have of soviet aircraft is seriously biasaed by post WW2 history, movies, books and film, which are full of Cold war propaganda.

 

For the record, I am not russian, I fly german when Online, in a 190 .... and when I get shot down, I did a mistake, nothing else , nothing more.

 

Last topic, I flew red for almost a year, and yes, Yak flaps are strange.... but it is not game breaking, unless you want if it to be.

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Sometimes I honestly believe MY ignorance of such things as "FM" is my saving. As I can for the most part enjoy this flight simulation without being pissed at it (for the most part). And as for the T-34 teaser, well I'm only guessing that this is something that "MAY" grace us some where in the future.

 

Chief

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@winger : >> I for my part still like the game (not calling it sim anymore since its not a sim in my opinion) even if i am getting more grey hair evertime i fly

 

must slightly disagree. The Devs did a good Simulator. Its more then War Thunder trash.  

Its the only one where I can fly with listen to the Wind Noises and await the response of my Plane.

 

In DCS I only love the clickpits and the even better engine Management with engine Response if you doing

something wrong. 

 

In my opinion IL2 is a Simulator with limiting Flight Features.

They should listen and fix the things and hopefully add a better complex Engine Management with clickpits.

 

I really hope the devs will doing this. Jason trys to help us , which I appreciate.

 

Cant say that I get Grey Hair after a flight :)

 

 

OP: IMHO: YAK-1 is overmodeled. Not the germans have the superior planes like its supposed to be in this theater. The russians have the superior planes. I know 109 can fly a tad faster and climb a tad better. But by such a small margin that over all in the encounters that happen on onlineservers in 99% of all cases the YAK-1 just has the better cards. If you ask me this is a marketingdecision because the portion of the customers that prefer to fly "allied" planes is bigger than the portion that likes to fly the evil german side. So its a simple decision of satisfying customers. And i can even understand it from a standpoint of a company that needs to make revenue in order to please its investors.

BUT: Going ahead and telling everyone that everything is modeled historically accurate when most available sources and anecdotal stories tells otherwise is just kind of (for the lack of a less extreme word) "ignorant". Just a little example that just doesnt want to go into my head. The BAR(s) (every 190 pilot knows what i am talking about) were NOT visible in the real thing. There is no plausible reason to leave them in place but restricting the anyways bad forward visibility of the 190 even more. Go figure...

I for my part still like the game (not calling it sim anymore since its not a sim in my opinion) even if i am getting more grey hair evertime i fly.

Just get into the cockpit of your desired plane and try to win anyways. Train, train, train. Flying the german side is far more rewarding than flying the easymode red crates. With the germans there is everything that an immersive FM needs. Not just "stick in stomach wussy virtual flying like you get when flying the woodcrates".

And even with the ever growing red depots that not even the gigantic bombs of the german heinkels can kill if not flown in a whole formation its just getting more and more rewarding if the germans manage to win one out of 1 rounds.

 

EDIT: FYI OP: The FMs were much more accurate once. But that resulted in hardly anyone flying the red side and I assume bad sales. Changing the FMs led to (at least at the times that i fly) at least as many reds flying (if not more) and i guess much better sales.

 

All in all there is reason for everything being created as it is. And there is nothing left but live with it or move on. We keep getting told "bring hard evidence and you concern might be considered". But Ze Hairys efforts on 190 performance show that this does not help as well.

 

 

 

 

@-IRRE-Icare

 

okay :salute:

 

BTW: You wont be able to rotate the flaps wheel to increase flap setting at 700 Km/h. Wondered me that it work in IL2   :)

 

Yea i am a young pilot i fly one time per week. And I didn't try to use flaps at 700km/h so if it's true i understand.

 

 

 

But when i read that the Yak-1 is superior or easy mod plane campared to 109 it's a big joke. 

Edited by RoteDreizehn

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What yak, which serie ? what conditions ? what was the state of aircraft tested etc....

 

People seem to forget the yak serie 69 is almost the yak 1b, expet for the tear drop canopy ...

 

 

Excellent point there. The Yak-1 isn't one model with basically the same performance... between the early series and late series the Yak-1 performance changes quite a bit. The flaps may or may not be messed up but I think there is this long standing, decades held, bias that German plans have to be superior at all times against all Russian fighters. By the end of 1942 that was less the case than it had been in the early part of the war.

 

If there are numbers and details showing that any plane is not performing right... then post them. If its conjecture then it doesn't really help anyone all that much.

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Excellent point there. The Yak-1 isn't one model with basically the same performance... between the early series and late series the Yak-1 performance changes quite a bit. The flaps may or may not be messed up but I think there is this long standing, decades held, bias that German plans have to be superior at all times against all Russian fighters. By the end of 1942 that was less the case than it had been in the early part of the war.

 

If there are numbers and details showing that any plane is not performing right... then post them. If its conjecture then it doesn't really help anyone all that much.

 

 

We could even add : "from which factory" :) because yes there was a huge disparity between factories !

 

To teh OP, if you take time to read some russian pilot memories, you'll see they do not even quote the "number type" of the yak they fly, yak 1 / yak 3 or yak 9. Because there was a mix of most aircraft type in units, and the development of the yak was not made like in western europe.

 

Some factories made a specific series, design was improved elsewhere, some improvment where added in some factories, some other were not.

Yak 1M was basically the yak 3, for example. Yak 9 was a "modified" yak 7, some of these aircraft were even field modified and upgraded.

 

So : for aircraft data, There is probably a huge disparity in russian aircraft, and Dev form 777 probably took those of a clean, well made aicraft.... wich explain the ge and data from german or westerners fly test, which were made with frontline aircraft, maybe damaged, maybe not of top quality

 

To those saying : "german had superior aircraft on eastern theater" .... well you should read more, and from different sources. Stalingrad is the turning point, after this battle LW never regained air superiority over the front :)

@YWinger : you are probably refering to the 1941, mid 1942 period .... not the same aircaft, not the same series of yak , lagg etc .... and not the period we have ingame ;)

Edited by LAL_Trinkof

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As for the 109 was better etc .... Would you say the 1942 Spitfire was on par with 1942 german planes ? Most probably yes, in our westerners mind.

 

-> Pilots who flew both airplanes, claim that the yak was better than spitfire.... (Normandie Niemen pilots, who are far from being amateur ;) )

Again, the conception we have of soviet aircraft is seriously biasaed by post WW2 history, movies, books and film, which are full of Cold war propaganda.

 

 

 

 

Which Spitfire, what Mk, what condition etc??   :biggrin:

 

Just kidding bro but all jokes aside, I suspect a clipped-wing Spit IX LF would eat a Yak for breakfast any day of the week.

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Luftwaffe losing air superiority on eastern front had nothing to do with quality of planes. It was all about the numbers. Almost whole LW fighter force were fighting against western allies from the year 1943.

Edited by Zami

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About the Fw-190 Jabo role in eastern front. It was used as a replacement for Stuka and suited that role due better damage resistance than the Bf-109. There were no better plane available for that role. Not because it was worse as a fighter than Messerschmitt. As a fighter it was considered superior to Bf-109 but it was not possible to turn all production to the Fw-190 caused by the war situation. Germans needed planes fast from production lines and Messerschmitt did that. And the fact that F-versions were more armored and flown by former Stuka pilots so I would leave those out of these conversations. 

 

Majority of the Focke Wulfs were against the Western allies for a reason. Germans wanted their best fighters to protect their homeland from devastating air attacks.  

 

I would not have better explained, thank you Zami.

 

There's nothing more frustrating than people that try to deny FM issues by changing the history to their sauce (hello Meow).

 

I mean... It is SO HARD to accept that there are FM issues in BoS ? Or what's the deal..?

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Luftwaffe losing air superiority on eastern front had nothing to do with quality of planes. It was all about the numbers. Almost whole LW fighter force were fighting against western allies from the year 1943.

 

 

This is also a post war idea .... :)

 

Total number of plane certainly, plane in the air at the moment of an air combat, not at all

 

Which Spitfire, what Mk, what condition etc??   :biggrin:

 

Just kidding bro but all jokes aside, I suspect a clipped-wing Spit IX LF would eat a Yak for breakfast any day of the week.

 

 

Well the Normandie Niemem pilot tested the MkIX, and the griffin spits postwar .... and they all pretty agreed : yak were better

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What are you talking about? When there is no opposition, it is pretty easy to archieve air superiority. Plain and simple. IIRC JG3 left eastern front august 1943 and left JG52 only whole geshwader to the east. Nothing unclear to me with this fact.

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It's clear that no one is going to change anyone's opinion here.  On the plus side of the VVS..when they changed their tactics and formed cohesive unit discipline...with some much needed radio communication procedure..they gave the Luftwaffe a fit.  The Luftwaffe lost a lot of pilots on the Eastern Front...granted...not as many as the Russians, but then again..nobody lost as many pilots, and ground troops as the Russians...

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Luftwaffe losing air superiority on eastern front had nothing to do with quality of planes. It was all about the numbers. Almost whole LW fighter force were fighting against western allies from the year 1943.

Keep telling yourself that and eventually it will be true!

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Keep telling yourself that and eventually it will be true!

If you have better information about LW fighter

unit positions from year 1943 on, please share it!

Edited by Zami

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First of all I realy admire BoS for it's "lively" enviroument compared to other sims. The way the plane starts shaking and is pushed forth and back by turbulences really remind me of flying at windy days in reality and ensures no flight feels like "flying on rails".

 

I usually don't care too much about performance as long as it appears plausible + compareable to real data. In some cases differences might be too big to allow realistic or historically confirmed action in combat which on the other hand bugs me. That unfortunately is also the case in BoS, primarily when looking at the Yak's energy rentention and flap issue as well as the Lavotchkins roll rate and lack of any roll inertia.

 

If those were solved the balance surely would shift more to the german side but fighting would become moer authentic and rewarding. The way it currently is I can't even touch the Yak without feeling ashamed. Even when flying the Lagg-3 (my favourite russian plane) I get a biter taste when engaging a Fw 190 in a rollfight only to see him losing to my more agile aircraft with quicker roll rate.

 

Is it fun to fly in the end? Yes it usually is. Do I feel upset about those mentioned issues? Pretty much, since in normal MP most fighter folks fly either the 109 F-4 or Yak-1 "for the killz", which puts even more emphasize on it's FM issues.

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka

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If you ask me this is a marketingdecision because the portion of the customers that prefer to fly "allied" planes is bigger than the portion that likes to fly the evil german side. So its a simple decision of satisfying customers. And i can even understand it from a standpoint of a company that needs to make revenue in order to please its investors.

 

 

The FMs were much more accurate once. But that resulted in hardly anyone flying the red side and I assume bad sales. Changing the FMs led to (at least at the times that i fly) at least as many reds flying (if not more) and i guess much better sales.

 

Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense

 

 

The BAR(s) (every 190 pilot knows what i am talking about) were NOT visible in the real thing. There is no plausible reason to leave them in place but restricting the anyways bad forward visibility of the 190 even more. Go figure...

 

No, it's been explained repeatedly by the team why it won't be changed. If you really wanted to know their reason you could find it here easily enough. There's no hidden agenda here.

Edited by LukeFF

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No, it's been explained repeatedly by the team why it won't be changed. If you really wanted to know their reason you could find it here easily enough. There's no hidden agenda here.

Could you help me out with the links please. Don't get me wrong, I believe you, but I don't know what you referring to. Thanks!

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No, it's been explained repeatedly by the team why it won't be changed. If you really wanted to know their reason you could find it here easily enough. There's no hidden agenda here.

Could you help me out with the links please. Don't get me wrong, I believe you, but I don't know what you referring to. Thanks!

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Could you help me out with the links please. Don't get me wrong, I believe you, but I don't know what you referring to. Thanks!

 

For one: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/8466-developer-diary-part-74/page-6?do=findComment&comment=143467 and http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/8466-developer-diary-part-74/page-6?do=findComment&comment=143475

Edited by LukeFF

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