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kiershar

Question about the new bf-109s and other planes

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Took a long break from this game, wondering about the new planes...

 

Specifically for the new bf-109s, what are their expected relative performance compared to the F-4? From what I understand the F-2 has the same engine but has a 15mm in the nose instead, which I assume should be lighter. Does that mean better climb, speed and perhap turn rates?

 

Regarding the I-16, does the better turn rates outweight the lack of speed and climb? From my experience in other sims, if you have a better turn fighter you can generally survive boom and zoom forever with proper maneuvering, is that the case in this game?

 

And last question, what is the expected from the mig-3 compared to the yak, especially interested in the ~3000m altitude and climb comparison. Also turn rates in general.

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The F-2 has a less-capable engine than the F-4.

Edited by LukeFF
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Took a long break from this game, wondering about the new planes...

 

Specifically for the new bf-109s, what are their expected relative performance compared to the F-4? From what I understand the F-2 has the same engine but has a 15mm in the nose instead, which I assume should be lighter. Does that mean better climb, speed and perhap turn rates?

The F-2 has roughly a 5-10% worse performance than the F-4 in climb and maximum speed, because it has a less powerful engine.
 

Regarding the I-16, does the better turn rates outweight the lack of speed and climb? From my experience in other sims, if you have a better turn fighter you can generally survive boom and zoom forever with proper maneuvering, is that the case in this game?

Actually the I-16 bleeds a lot of energy when turning and it doesn't outweight the lack of speed in any way. You just can't catch up to anyone, unless your opponent makes huge mistakes. Of course the current Axis fighters are faster than the Bf 109 F-2 and E-7, but it shouldn't have a big chance against those either. It's good in the ground attack role though.
 

And last question, what is the expected from the mig-3 compared to the yak, especially interested in the ~3000m altitude and climb comparison. Also turn rates in general.

At 3000 meters, the Mig-3 should be much worse than the Yak-1 (and worse than all other Soviet planes, excluding the I-16) in speed and climbrate. It will only become superior to the other planes at higher altitudes (5000-6000 meters +). The turn rate and turn radius shouldn't be better than that of the other planes either, except maybe at higher altitudes.

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Ah thanks. Not much reasons to get this expansion then, since I practically only play multiplayer. Kinda disapointing. Would have loved a good turn fighter.

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Ah thanks. Not much reasons to get this expansion then, since I practically only play multiplayer. Kinda disapointing. Would have loved a good turn fighter.

 

The F2 and E7 are good aircraft for the Battle of Moscow period.

 

When BOM comes out it is more likely that maps will rotate with aircraft sets limited to the time frame....I can't imagine having G2s and La5s on a BOM mission.

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Ah thanks. Not much reasons to get this expansion then, since I practically only play multiplayer. Kinda disapointing. Would have loved a good turn fighter.

I wouldn't count out MP for BoM just yet ;) The performance advantage of the German planes isn't gonna be any worse than it is in BoS and there's a good chance the MiG-3 will deny the Luftwaffe control at high altitude (especially since both of the BoM Messers have their biggest performance gap to the F4 at high altitude) It all depends on which performance figures the devs base it on.

 

As for a good turn fighter: Well, the I-16 is pretty much the quintessensial turn fighter. It doesn't do much more than that, but its turn rate, acceleration and P/W ratio are all excellent.

 

The real dog here is the P-40. Against Messerschmitts it just has very little to offer. The good news is, that in top speed speed alone it's not actually too far behind the 1941 109s.

Edited by Finkeren

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The Bf109F-4 has the DB601E which  was a huge improvement over the previous generations due to better supercgarger design and lubrication and ignition which allowed for higher RPM. It puts out maximum power at 1.42ata and 2700rpm and has a very good altitdue range. 1350-1450 PS maximum at up to 5600m

 

The F-2 mounts the DB601N which is a high altitude derivative of the DB601Aa. It basically has a different hydraulic clutch for the supercharger, higher compression but couldn't use higher boost settings.

The DB601N has the major flaw of requiring 100 Octane fuel, which is harder to come by in a combat environment, while the DB601E uses standard 87 Octane.

The DB601N has less HP at low levels than the DB601Aa (Bf109E-7) but better medium and high altitude performance.

It is however limited to 1.35ata and 2450rpm, meaing it's poweroutput is significantly lower than the DB601E.

DB601N: 1.35-1.40ata and 2450rpm -->1175-1210hp. Maximum useful altitude is around 5700m

The F-2 is lighter by about 200kg or more depending on wether armor is carried or not. Weight is roughly 2730kg against the F-4's 2900kg

 

The Engine cannon from the production line is the MG151, however these were often field modded to become the MG151/20. The F-2 cannot mount gun-pods.

 

The E-7 is a completely different aircraft from the F-series. It has completely different wing and tail assembly, as well as everyting else except the core fuselage.

This means it flies completely differently.

It's aerodynamics are less refined, meaning it will display less pleasant handling than the F-series especially at very high speeds. It will display heavy shudder during turns when slats are extended, the cut off wing tips will increase rate of roll, but also make the aircraft more susceptible to snap rolling close to stall.

The rudder, unlike on the F-series, is not airfoil shaped, but symmetrical which will result in somewhat more difficult take-off and climb behaviour.

The engine is the DB601Aa.

It is a low and medium altitude version of the DB601-series with automatic engine control.

It's powersettings and power are 1.35-1.4 ata at 2450rpm and effective crititcal altiude at around 4500m.

 

The E-7 is a completely different bird, it's overall performance is worse than the F-series, however it will be a good package in terms of firepower and general handling as well as low altitude.

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During autmn and winter of 41/42 there was 126.IAP serving at Kalinin front and then PVO of Moscow.But they used Tomahawks MkIIb.P-40E started to arrive in april 1942.This regiment served briefly at Stalingrad front as part of 268.IAD from 28.8.42 but suffered heavy losses within the week of fierce fighting and has been moved to reserves and later reequipped with La-5.So our P-40 is kind of episodal appearance plane for actualy depicted/planned batttles.Either BoM or BoS.
Btw,map of BoM can be used for dozens of different scenarios,not only autumn-winter 41/42 but complete 42 till early spring 1943.Ill famous 1942 Rzev meatgrinder of Zhukov together with his greatest defeat - operation Mars + subsequent withrawl of german forces from salient.
There is space for all planes we have/will have in near future.No need to go negative.Everything will be up to mission makers and MP servers providers :salute: 
 

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The E-7 by that time was deployed in "Jabo" squadroms serving as a ground attack aircraft. They were completely replaced in their fighter role with 109 F4s and F2s (later ones were upgraded to F4 standards over time) by 1942.

 

The gorund attack version reccieved some additional armour to protect the engine and pilot during strafing runs - something the 109 was always flawed with. No matter what version of the Emil we get it will not be able to outclass BoS's VVS aircraft except the Lagg-3 maybe (although the lagg should considerably be faster).

 

If you preferr to stick with the strongest aircraft only BoM will be disappoiting. Personally I welcome the addition of the Mig-3 and Bf-110 in particular and look ahead getting to fly those in MP, no matter how technicly superiour other aircrafts availabel might be.

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka
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Personally I welcome the addition of the Mig-3 and Bf-110 in particular and look ahead getting to fly those in MP, no matter how technicly superiour other aircrafts availabel might be.

 

Yes! I can't wait for the 110.

 

And, the JU-88 is another plane I am looking forward to. 

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If you preferr to stick with the strongest aircraft only BoM will be disappoiting.

 

I see where you're coming from but I don't think it will be a let down in multiplayer, especially if the servers use historical settings. This time both sides have a fast bomber, capable attack aircraft (one armoured and one heavy fighter), a slightly obsolete fighter that works well on either ground attack or low level air combat, and two high performance fighters.

 

In addition to that, this time around the VVS is the one with the high altitude advantage, with the Luftwaffe dominating at medium levels and an even match between the Ishak and the Emil down low. Another interesting bit is that Soviet attack pilots now have to deal with the Bf-110 which, after expending its ordinance, can promptly run after their Il-2s with no rear gunner and deliver one hell of a blow with the nose armament.

 

Even in settings where all planes are available it will be fun, a clear example of this is the gang of MiG-21 pilots on DCS who make a living out of sucking aggressive F-15s pilots expecting an easy kill into their trap.

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The E-7 by that time was deployed in "Jabo" squadrons serving as a ground attack aircraft. They were completely replaced in their fighter role with 109 F4s and F2s (later ones were upgraded to F4 standards over time) by 1942.

 

In German units, yes, but in the south the Slovaks operated it as a fighter well into late 1942/early 1943. And, of course, there was also Romania, which operated it as a fighter.

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In German units, yes, but in the south the Slovaks operated it as a fighter well into late 1942/early 1943. And, of course, there was also Romania, which operated it as a fighter.

Yep,we had like 14(?) E-7 alltogether serving in 13./JG52 (slowakisches) They were flown till battle of Kuban,april 1943.

As romanian fighter it is perfectly suitable for Stalingrad summer/autmn map.

Lots of opportunities for interesting maps and missions with actual BoS and future BoM planeset spaning from autmn 1941 till spring 1943.Just stay positive and keep away from them negative waves  :salute:

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Personnaly there's just one attribute that I look for in propeller planes and it's climb speed; So I'm just gonna end up with a variant of a bf-109 which will be pratically exact gameplay. Regarding the mig-3 i don't think high altitude performance is that great, because if you don't have speed advantage at all altitude the opposition can just avoid you forever.

Edited by kiershar

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Which Axis aircraft (other than variants of the 109 or 190) were you hoping for? You wont be flying a G2 in a BOM server if they have historical plane sets :)

 

Yesterday you wanted a turn fighter and today you just want climb performance.....I'm confused  :wacko:

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I don't know all the ww2 planes so I don't know what I would really like. it would have been nice to have a decent turn fighter, but for a turn fighter to be competitive it needs to have good enough turn to outweight the lack of engine power. If you can't capitalize on your turns because the opposition can just spiral climb then it's just not competitive. So if there's no competitive turn fighter the only attributes worth it is climb rates and that means bf-109 forever.

 

I like plane with strong attributes because if you are on the lower end, winning a 1v2 is practically impossible. I enjoy going against 2 or 3 human pilots at once and to do that you need a plane that has either good top speed to run away, good climb speed to keep on top or a combinaison of enough TWR and turn to make proper gun defense against multiple planes. Aside from the ishak, it feels like this expansion only has plane that are either non-competitve or the exact same flavor as in BoS.

 

Don't know if russia had spitfires at one point, but that could have been a cool plane to even the odds for russia.

Edited by kiershar

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Which Axis aircraft (other than variants of the 109 or 190) were you hoping for? You wont be flying a G2 in a BOM server if they have historical plane sets :)

 

Yesterday you wanted a turn fighter and today you just want climb performance.....I'm confused  :wacko:

P-36 is what you're looking for. Almost 20m/s in some versions and very tight turns.

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I don't know all the ww2 planes so I don't know what I would really like. it would have been nice to have a decent turn fighter, but for a turn fighter to be competitive it needs to have good enough turn to outweight the lack of engine power. If you can't capitalize on your turns because the opposition can just spiral climb then it's just not competitive. So if there's no competitive turn fighter the only attributes worth it is climb rates and that means bf-109 forever.

 

I like plane with strong attributes because if you are on the lower end, winning a 1v2 is practically impossible. I enjoy going against 2 or 3 human pilots at once and to do that you need a plane that has either good top speed to run away, good climb speed to keep on top or a combinaison of enough TWR and turn to make proper gun defense against multiple planes. Aside from the ishak, it feels like this expansion only has plane that are either non-competitve or the exact same flavor as in BoS.

 

Don't know if russia had spitfires at one point, but that could have been a cool plane to even the odds for russia.

 

It really all depends on the servers and how they are created. If you were doing i16 versus E7 then I think you would get an reasonably good match up but yes you are generally going to get faster aircraft that climb better (LW) versus slightly slower aircraft that turn better (VVS) in the stages of the war covered in BOS and BOM. The one curve ball is the Mig 3 as I already mentioned.

 

Someone can probably correct me or add to this but the LaGG we have might just squeeze in to the BOM time frame as well.

 

[Edit: apparent the series 29 entered production in June 42 so maybe not]

Edited by Nikko

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Klaus makes a good argument for the p36. There was one version that had a .50 in the cowling, but I don't remember which version. I don't know if the Russians flew 36's though. Did they? Suppose I could just look it up.

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-snip-

 

Someone can probably correct me or add to this but the LaGG we have might just squeeze in to the BOM time frame as well.

 

[Edit: apparent the series 29 entered production in June 42 so maybe not]

 

Production may have ended but I am sure there were still many in the field operating as S. 29's and being retrofitted with newer gear.  :cool:

 

I am looking forward to the E-7 as a fighter and as a Jabo. It'll be fun for BOS/BOM regardless of what it gets matched up against. 

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I really loved the P-36 in warthunder, but I haven't played it since BoS was released. It had the perfect package altought sometimes the single cowl .50+peashooter mg were inconsistent. If you encountered a better turning plane you were generally a better climber and if you were fighting against a purely BnZ plane you had the turn advantage; so you had to change playstyle depending on the opponent. Was really fun.

 

even made a FRB video back then :

Edited by kiershar

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I think the MiG-3 will be underestimated in how good it is because of the reputation that it gathered and is reprinted in the history books over and over again - but thing is that they are nearly always talking about the early model. The late model that we're getting should be a much better match to the 109F-2. The E-7 should be a decent enough match to the I-16... and honestly all of these aircraft are packing cannons. Even the I-16. Not to be underestimated in an online fight! We've run this aircraft scenario for years in IL-2 1946 and its a ton of fun... although we had the LaGG-3 Series 4 and early series Yak-1 as well.

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The MiG-3 really has an unfair rep. Flying in 1946 campaigns I always get the most fighter kills, only matching it in the La-5. Online isn't far off.

 

I can't recall pilots themselves criticising the MiG-3, only writers. I never researched much though except for Pokryshkin's story.

 

The glory of it is that it flies with very little stick input. Hamfisting only bleeds a lot of energy and angers the plane, as if it doesn't want to fly with you any more. The MiG-3 is a temperamental beast but if you're docile it's a killer. Since many people are expecting it to be easy prey I predict many 109s falling victim to eagerness.

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Definitely. Plus we'll have leading edge slats and probably the 2x20mm ShVAK option available so it'll be really quite the deadly fighter in the right hands. I think its underestimated and people will be surprised!

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I have flown the P-40 on several sorties already within the WOL server and made atleast two kills flying against human pilots manning the BF-109 as well as a FW-190.  I'm happy with this plane and enjoy flying it a lot.  Many thanks to all those people who had a part in creating this aircraft virtually.  When you know how to fly one of these virtual aircraft within its envelope properly, you may just end up making a kill but regardless, if your having fun, then it doesn't matter. 

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The MiG-3 really has an unfair rep. Flying in 1946 campaigns I always get the most fighter kills, only matching it in the La-5. Online isn't far off.

 

I can't recall pilots themselves criticising the MiG-3, only writers. I never researched much though except for Pokryshkin's story.

 

The glory of it is that it flies with very little stick input. Hamfisting only bleeds a lot of energy and angers the plane, as if it doesn't want to fly with you any more. The MiG-3 is a temperamental beast but if you're docile it's a killer. Since many people are expecting it to be easy prey I predict many 109s falling victim to eagerness.

I love the MiG-3 more than most people here, and I can't wait to try it out in BoM. I also think it's gotten too much bad press and might surprise people with its agility and speed.

 

But I very much caution you against taking IL-2 1946 as any indication of how the MiG-3 (or really any other aircraft) will perform. While the early MiG-3 is a total dog in that sim, I really think the 'ud' version is grossly overmodeled and not a realistic portrayal of the real thing. The AM-38 version is even worse and is propably more representative of what might have been posible, had MiG-3 development continued with the AM-38, than an accurate model of the MiGs that were converted to use the engine.

Edited by Finkeren

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I don't know all the ww2 planes so I don't know what I would really like. it would have been nice to have a decent turn fighter, but for a turn fighter to be competitive it needs to have good enough turn to outweight the lack of engine power. If you can't capitalize on your turns because the opposition can just spiral climb then it's just not competitive. So if there's no competitive turn fighter the only attributes worth it is climb rates and that means bf-109 forever.

So you want a plane with an awesome turn rate and a good climb rate? Well, actually the I-16 has you covered there, it'll be the best climbing of the VVS fighters in BoM. Just too bad that it's much too slow to take advantage of it.

 

Don't know if russia had spitfires at one point, but that could have been a cool plane to even the odds for russia.

Actually yes, the USSR had quite a few Spitfire Mk. V in service in the south in 1943, and the pilots pretty much thought they were rubbish, which they most likely were (they were mostly second hand 1941 planes unfit for front line service in 1943 and the Soviet Union had no 100 octane fuel for them)

 

It really sounds like you want an über fighter, that's the best in both turn rate, climb, acceleration and speed, which pretty much will leave the opposition without a fair chance. If that's the case, I don't know why we're even discussing VVS aircraft. Just jump into the Bf 109F2 and you'll be satisfied.

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MiG-3 with AM38 would be a beast at low/mid altitudes.I hope devs will consider this variant at some point.

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Wonder if the YAK-1 was available in the BOM with the type we have currently. Since IF thats the case the germans can bury themselves totally if they even cant run anymore.

Was on WOL in a UFO-1 yesterday. Flying all day with rads to 60%, FULL POWER, canopy open and 540 km/h at cloudheight. Excellent view a german can only dram of. Heh you can even inspect the belly of your plane if you like:P. Guys sorry. But this plane is an act of marketing in order to pull customers. Nothing else. I was very successful to say the least. I was hit but never received any damage that was critical in any way. Heck this thing just keeps flying, even with holes all over:P

Just a plain joke. Germans cant do anything but run against it. The 2 times i went down was because i got too low and touched the trees while turning on the dime.

The plane is an equivalent to a "push here to score" button:P

Edited by Winger
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Wonder if the YAK-1 was available in the BOM with the type we have currently.

 

It wasn't.

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The Yak-1 at the time would've had the Klimov M-105P engine which was much weaker or the 105PA which was slightly weaker than the PF version we use in BoS. It would also be slightly heavier and with less effective controls. It would also have had loads of teething problems with the new design, but those would not be modeled in a sim.

 

The Yak-1 with the M-105P had horrendously bad climb rate, worse than the LaGG-3 has in BoS.

Edited by Finkeren

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I know of the 1946 limitations on the MiG-3, but truth be told I love either early or UD variants there and I am sure the devs will do a fantastic job bringing it to BoM. I can't wait to have it properly modeled in Battle of Moscow, that aircraft has a lot of personality and it's a joy to fly. It's probably been my favourite Soviet plane for nearly a decade. I don't think we will see the AM-38 version there though - at least personally I would not include it. There was just too little of it around.

 

I am actually looking forward to flying it in its default 2xShKAS+1xUBS configuration. The relatively light armour in German planes back in 1941 should make that more than enough considering they are mounted straight in the nose.

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The Yak-1 at the time would've had the Klimov M-105P engine which was much weaker or the 105PA which was slightly weaker than the PF version we use in BoS. It would also be slightly heavier and with less effective controls. It would also have had loads of teething problems with the new design, but those would not be modeled in a sim.

 

The Yak-1 with the M-105P had horrendously bad climb rate, worse than the LaGG-3 has in BoS.

I don't think you're 100% true though. The Yak-1 first series with VK-105P just had a much longer first and second supercharger gear resulting in less maximum power low down but better medium altitude performance. As far as I know the early models outclimb the VK-105PF powered ones in a climb to 5000m (5.7 minutes vs. 6 flat) and speed above 4000m.

The PF models are better suited for Il-2 protection, the P-models for Pe-2 high altitdue escort.

 

The early 5-gun LaGG-3s actually had a retractable tailwheel giving it similar top speeds to the one we already have. And the Gorky (n°21) Production models were pretty close to the Yak-1, just short of about 5%.

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Wonder if the YAK-1 was available in the BOM with the type we have currently. Since IF thats the case the germans can bury themselves totally if they even cant run anymore.

Was on WOL in a UFO-1 yesterday. Flying all day with rads to 60%, FULL POWER, canopy open and 540 km/h at cloudheight. Excellent view a german can only dram of. Heh you can even inspect the belly of your plane if you like:P. Guys sorry. But this plane is an act of marketing in order to pull customers. Nothing else. I was very successful to say the least. I was hit but never received any damage that was critical in any way. Heck this thing just keeps flying, even with holes all over:P

Just a plain joke. Germans cant do anything but run against it. The 2 times i went down was because i got too low and touched the trees while turning on the dime.

The plane is an equivalent to a "push here to score" button:P

 

Do you ever stop?

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I don't think you're 100% true though. The Yak-1 first series with VK-105P just had a much longer first and second supercharger gear resulting in less maximum power low down but better medium altitude performance. As far as I know the early models outclimb the VK-105PF powered ones in a climb to 5000m (5.7 minutes vs. 6 flat) and speed above 4000m.

The PF models are better suited for Il-2 protection, the P-models for Pe-2 high altitdue escort.

I just checked my sources,, and neither of us are exactly right. It was the Yak-1 with the PA engine that showed miserable climb performance (6.9min to 5000m in Summer 1941) The very early production models did indeed have fairly good climb rate (5.7 mins being the most commonly cited) but those were pre-war production of generally a bit higher quality than the summer/autumn 1941 production. Edited by Finkeren

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I just checked my sources,, and neither of us are exactly right. It was the Yak-1 with the PA engine that showed miserable climb performance (6.9min to 5000m in Summer 1941) The very early production models did indeed have fairly good climb rate (5.7 mins being the most commonly cited) but those were pre-war production of generally a bit higher quality than the summer/autumn 1941 production.

The difference was in the factories mainly, and performance will vary quite dramatically between those. The best LaGG-3s came from the 21st Factory, which is in now Nizhny Novgorod, with trained workers, and only about 300 first-third series examples were built there.

The Yak-1 was a production mess altogether.

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