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Jason_Williams

This is where we will discuss PWCG for BOS

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hi gentleman
I find that the latest version loads too much object on the map versus the first versions that only loaded the objects on the flight plan.

And it would be nice to add a squadron Normandie Niemen with the Yak 1b (French squadron) with the French flags to make a French campaign as the Italian campaign.

Thank you.

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Hi There,

 

First of a, thanks Pat for providing this awesome single payer mode. I recently really got into this, but encountered the annoying problem of all AI focusing on me, which at some point caused me to Alt-F4 out of the game. We encountered 4 Yaks, all focusing on me (and AI wingmen doing nothing really). Having an energy advantage in my Bf-109 F4 I decided to rope-a-dope them. However my energy advantage was not nearly enough, and we ended up in an infinite climbing loop with all 4 yaks chasing me up, until i got bored, engaged in a turn fight, and obviously got shot to pieces...

 

I remember reading at some point there was an update which meant to mitigate this problem. Are others experiencing the same issue in 3.3.2 ?

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Hi There,

 

First of a, thanks Pat for providing this awesome single payer mode. I recently really got into this, but encountered the annoying problem of all AI focusing on me, which at some point caused me to Alt-F4 out of the game. We encountered 4 Yaks, all focusing on me (and AI wingmen doing nothing really). Having an energy advantage in my Bf-109 F4 I decided to rope-a-dope them. However my energy advantage was not nearly enough, and we ended up in an infinite climbing loop with all 4 yaks chasing me up, until i got bored, engaged in a turn fight, and obviously got shot to pieces...

 

I remember reading at some point there was an update which meant to mitigate this problem. Are others experiencing the same issue in 3.3.2 ?

 

That is AI and not PWCG.  They do get very target fixated, but not necessarily on you.  Best tip that I have is let your flight mates engage first and then you pick your enemies off while they are fixated on your flight mates.

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From my experience, what makes your squadmates help you, is shooting a green flare, as it is the same what your pilot does, when you press the key for 'Cover Me'. But the keys for the orders only work, when you are the leader. So the workaround is pressing the keys to fire a green flare. But remember, it will need some time until your squadmates are in shooting position, and you should help them with the way how you fly, especially as AI is not really good in cutting turns and shooting on moving AI targets.

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That is AI and not PWCG.  They do get very target fixated, but not necessarily on you.  Best tip that I have is let your flight mates engage first and then you pick your enemies off while they are fixated on your flight mates.

 

Thanks, that makes sense. I did have some fights earlier that were more balanced. Sounds like something that could be easily changed by the AI programmers, e.g. max parameter for enemies focused on player if other targets are nearby. Would be more realistic too.

From my experience, what makes your squadmates help you, is shooting a green flare, as it is the same what your pilot does, when you press the key for 'Cover Me'. But the keys for the orders only work, when you are the leader. So the workaround is pressing the keys to fire a green flare. But remember, it will need some time until your squadmates are in shooting position, and you should help them with the way how you fly, especially as AI is not really good in cutting turns and shooting on moving AI targets.

 

Good idea! I did wonder about the orders issue, being only a Feldwebel ;)

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Unfortunately nothing can be easily changed by the AI programmers otherwise they would have done it.

We have been asking for this to be addressed for a long time now :(

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yeah I suspect the change itself could be easy but would possibly lead to domino-like unwanted consequences during other gameplay situations

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And it would be nice to add a squadron Normandie Niemen with the Yak 1b (French squadron) with the French flags to make a French campaign as the Italian campaign.

Thank you.

There’s no place for GC3 in PWCG at the moment - but they might have a place when the Prokhorovka tank map is released.

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@PatrickAWlson TLDR - what settings have the largest performance impact in game? hoping to find a couple of options I can lower while keeping a lot of the density higher than high.

Thanks for the mod, seems great so far, I had been playing normal career mode fighter squadron in BOS but wanted to get more immersed so I fired up a BOM PWCG campaign with an il2 and set air and ground density to high. I also tweaked up the numbers even more for most objects such as the additional planes, max flights, lowered the distance between MGs, increased smoke and so on.

I figured I would be OK as I can run career mode stable at limited 80fps close to ultra maxed out at 1440p with hud and indicators (and AA) off with this system: 4790k (at 4.7ghz), 16gb oc'd ram, 980TI oc'd, SSD

Of course, sadly I now get the slow motion mentioned here: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/34668-slow-motion-career-mode/ 
So I have started to dial back the settings gradually but still there is consistent slow motion. The thing is when I fired up a first test run of PWCG on BOS with high density there was no slomo, so I'm sure I can find a sweet spot of busy front/air war with performance. Then again maybe BOM is a larger map than BOS? it certainly feel grander to me already, and more war like (with these settings).

Could you recommend what are the settings likely to have the largest performance impact? Is it the other flights? or is it the ground objects or the smoke? I have been looking at the "create random ground units" in mission limits, if I turn this off will there still be a busy front line, but just less "flavour" of randomness populating the ground world? I'm assuming it may have a decent performance impact? Then again I do love the odd train chugging along... ;)

Also with the settings of default high density for the air that you have in the CG so far, what is the reasoning for that level? is high density about as high as it can get without having a super computer at this time? Or is it more about some compromised level of realism plus performance considerations? Maybe I should just go back to that and respect the time you have already put into this ;)


also wondering - do you have a rough ETA on when you might have updated the squadron accuracy? I may hold off getting too into a campaign.

and one for the community - does anyone have any custom config settings they would like to share? I have been searching for ideas but there is not much exchange taking place from what I can see? but then I assume from what I have been discovering it's all fairly resource dependent so would vary from individual to individual

 

 

Edited by MeeGee

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@MeeGee

Air density is the biggest CPU consumer.  If you are playing an IL2 campaign I would set air density to low and ground density to high.  I have hear mixed reviews on smoke but the general consensus is that it does consume a lot of GPU.

 

Default air density in a campaign should be low.  Ground density should be medium by default.  High air density is for people with top of the line computers. 

 

Let's say this weekend for a fix on the squadrons.

 

 

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3 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

@MeeGee

Air density is the biggest CPU consumer.  If you are playing an IL2 campaign I would set air density to low and ground density to high.  I have hear mixed reviews on smoke but the general consensus is that it does consume a lot of GPU.

 

Default air density in a campaign should be low.  Ground density should be medium by default.  High air density is for people with top of the line computers. 

 

Let's say this weekend for a fix on the squadrons.

 

 

@PatrickAWlson

oh nice! thanks about the squadrons, that means I can get ready for a campaign starting soon... I was worried that with you updating those and 1C talking about career improvements in June I would have to sit on my hands waiting for the next best optimal experience :)

About density, yeah I think I can handle high density on both just about - my tweaks above that are a bit intense, I forget my computer isn't top of the line anymore. Sad though as ideally I would have hoped to get 500 planes in the air at once from time to time ;)

I just tried to take off with my full squadron, 12 planes, it was like trying to fly through butter. I guess the numbers for flights are generally below that for a reason. . Are AI comrades even more resource intensive than other AI? what with the radio commands, take off/landing routines and such?

Could you explain "create random ground units" value a little and it's potential impact on performance?

Thanks

 

 

Edited by MeeGee

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As far as I am aware AI flight mates are no more CPU intensive than other AI.  The thing about your flight mates is that they are always there.  So if you start with twelve guys who are always on the board there is not much room for more. 

 

I have never done performance testing so I am not sure what the limits are for planes on the map at one time for a given setup.  I know that multi crew planes consume more than single place planes.  I would further expect the AI loop for fighters, ground attack, dove bombers.etc.to be different.

 

Last but not least, IL2 tends to be PU intensive more than GPU intensive.

Edited by PatrickAWlson

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On 01/05/2018 at 5:49 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

As far as I am aware AI flight mates are no more CPU intensive than other AI.  The thing about your flight mates is that they are always there.  So if you start with twelve guys who are always on the board there is not much room for more. 

 

I have never done performance testing so I am not sure what the limits are for planes on the map at one time for a given setup.  I know that multi crew planes consume more than single place planes.  I would further expect the AI loop for fighters, ground attack, dove bombers.etc.to be different.

 

Last but not least, IL2 tends to be PU intensive more than GPU intensive.


Just wanted to report back - so after much optimisation and some testing, I have found even maxing out my system that medium ground density is just too much for me to handle on a busy ground mission, even with low air there is pretty big slow down for the busy times. So I opt for much more air as it is a flight sim after all.

I'm not deprived of computing power, although I guess lacking some general bandwidth and the faster RAM that is available now I won't know. I have a 4790k @4.8Ghz, 16gb @2133 10 9 10 24 and a Samsung EVO850. I get very smooth gameplay on quick missions and normal campaign and I'm staying at 105fps (my monitors limit) most of the time, with occasional frame drops, but just can't seem to find a setting on PWCG to get medium ground to run smooth for those busy missions. I'm not sure if having 4 cores is a factor here.

I am surprised that even with low (and med/high for air), it can get extremely "war like" busy at times. I suppose you pushed the ground objects to the max intentionally Patrick? I'm not used to having to select medium or low in settings! ;)

For clarity I'm talking about ground missions only at this point that cause the slow down, or when I need to get near enough to the ground for the objects to spawn in (I'm guessing)

Thanks for the mod though either way :)

Edited by MeeGee

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High is definitely high, although PWCG shaves off a significant amount of stuff regardless of setting.  A PWCG mission by default covers the whole front, and has to be reduced from there to something a computer can handle.

 

It's interesting that your system is struggling at medium.  You have a more powerful CPU and just as much RAM as I do, but I can run medium ground/low air just fine.  

 

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50 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

High is definitely high, although PWCG shaves off a significant amount of stuff regardless of setting.  A PWCG mission by default covers the whole front, and has to be reduced from there to something a computer can handle.

 

It's interesting that your system is struggling at medium.  You have a more powerful CPU and just as much RAM as I do, but I can run medium ground/low air just fine.  

 


To be honest low air med ground seemed to work OK, but still had noticeable slow down on the busy ground attack missions. The mission take off/approach were all very nice, but the real action started to head towards unplayable. So my approach has been if I have to take low something I'd rather do that for ground units as I'm keen to have a real challenge and a bit of madness in the air. Also it's clear Medium Medium + is definitely too much for those busier missions.

Don't get me wrong though, there are a majority of times where everything is silky smooth, but due to the random nature of what might be coming, it's better to accomodate the most taxing scenarios in the config.

I have flown multiple missions on med med, or even a bit higher, and thought that everything was working. But when implementing lots of planes taking off with my squadron or when heading near the front for ground attack / escort or ending up down low near ground units in a dogfight, I'm always getting the slow down to the point where it's unplayable (and with the OC tests I was getting a lot of crashes as my system was already unstable). I have massively tweaked my system now and got it nice and stable, and honestly can't imagine any more solutions ;)

Low Ground, Med/High air (basically medium bumped up a bit) and some other tweaks to train carriages, smoke, and delete planes distance seems to still get choppy sometimes, but I can bear it now. I had a mission that seemed like the extreme test case the other day with at least 4 different big flights in the air, masses of smoke and tracers around, and enough ground units to keep me busy. It was hectic enough :)

it may just be that I've been pushing my CPU too hard for a while now, but my OCs have never been totally crazy, but it has hit some horrible temps a few times on tests...

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Is it possible the random ground battles option is set to 1. I had to set it to 0 so it didn't generate more ground activity because it seemed to introduce stutters and the slow motion. I just have the simple settings as low air, mid ground and it runs fine. I'm on a i7 3820 clocked at 4.5ghz. 

Edited by TheSNAFU

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11 hours ago, TheSNAFU said:

Is it possible the random ground battles option is set to 1. I had to set it to 0 so it didn't generate more ground activity because it seemed to introduce stutters and the slow motion. I just have the simple settings as low air, mid ground and it runs fine. I'm on a i7 3820 clocked at 4.5ghz. 


Yes it is, I have tried with it off for a bunch of missions and noticed some general improvement. I can only say vagely that it was better, I think it was med/med type settings, but because immersion is such a big deal for me, it's important for me to keep it on. I really like it when there is a random train or convoy chugging along the ground as you fly overhead. I know it's the sort of thing you only notice every now and then but it's worth it.

If I had continued having problems as I tried to get things above the basic low/med then I would have turned it off as having a more populated mission (planes mostly) is also a measure of immersion.


For me the real killer seems to be the ground units, so it's probable I could get sustainable medium ground settings with random units off.

I also turn the pilots AI higher, so that may take some processing power.

also maybe I haven't mentioned that I have Hyper Threading off. I don't know if that's important, but it was important to improve stutters, even if I lost a few frames.


 

Edited by MeeGee

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23 hours ago, MeeGee said:


Yes it is, I have tried with it off for a bunch of missions and noticed some general improvement. I can only say vagely that it was better, I think it was med/med type settings, but because immersion is such a big deal for me, it's important for me to keep it on. I really like it when there is a random train or convoy chugging along the ground as you fly overhead. I know it's the sort of thing you only notice every now and then but it's worth it.

If I had continued having problems as I tried to get things above the basic low/med then I would have turned it off as having a more populated mission (planes mostly) is also a measure of immersion.


For me the real killer seems to be the ground units, so it's probable I could get sustainable medium ground settings with random units off.

I also turn the pilots AI higher, so that may take some processing power.

also maybe I haven't mentioned that I have Hyper Threading off. I don't know if that's important, but it was important to improve stutters, even if I lost a few frames.


 

That's interesting that the random ground action doesn't hit your performance hard. It most very  certainly hits mine to the point I won't use it. What is always baffling about this game is fps are solidly 60 with vcync on. Never drops but the game stutters a lot and goes into slow mo

with a lot of ground activity. Never quite understood that. Anyway just wanted to share my experience with the random option. I may mess with it more as I would like more ground action. 

Edited by TheSNAFU

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12 hours ago, TheSNAFU said:

That's interesting that the random ground action doesn't hit your performance hard. It most very  certainly hits mine to the point I won't use it. What is always baffling about this game is fps are solidly 60 with vcync on. Never drops but the game stutters a lot and goes into slow mo

with a lot of ground activity. Never quite understood that. Anyway just wanted to share my experience with the random option. I may mess with it more as I would like more ground action. 

Do you exit PWCG completely prior to running BoX? I have found that I get the slow motion effect if PWCG is running in the background. So bad that playing a Co-op mission I will be flying full buster in a straight line while other players are circling me at about 75% throttle.

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1 hour ago, 71st_AH_Rob_XR-R said:

Do you exit PWCG completely prior to running BoX? I have found that I get the slow motion effect if PWCG is running in the background. So bad that playing a Co-op mission I will be flying full buster in a straight line while other players are circling me at about 75% throttle.


interesting, I thought I had tried both, but I'll do this too now for any future games just to be safe... I remember Patrick saying it shouldn't have an effect, but who knows what variables we may be missing.

@TheSNAFU Yeah I think I have been getting impatient, so I have become less rigorous in the testing, and it's all very subjective. Yes it definitely has an effect, but for me it's either drop ground objects to lower density or turn off random battles, I'm not sure if they are equal, but I'm going to try a new campaign now with med/med and random battles off etc on so I'll see how it goes. It may be the better compromise for ground attack immersion.

@PatrickAWlson Did you manage to update the squadron accuracy to match that of the developers? I noticed you updated a few things and my pilot has just crashed behind enemy lines so... time to try a new one!

Also FYI I did a ground attack mission, as outlined below and I noticed 2 issues. One was that none of my AI comrades attacked anything on the ground, they just circled the location, and 2 was that I destroyed the 2 bridges at the location myself, and my flight seemed to recognise the mission was over so they went home. I flew back and landed safely, "mission accomplished" but I had no bridges in my score, and nothing outlined in the debrief. Is that normal for these types of missions? I feel like I could have taken off and landed and it been the same kind of experience ;)

5af85bdc3be88_2018-05-1314_10_54-.thumb.png.1bf8b86c520461f8e9be3815d9a2b93f.png




Also could anyone possibly link me to an ABC, 123 idiots guide on how to get some reasonably accurate squadron skins into the campaign, for say... a Russian fighter based campaign starting on Moscow map? I'm quite a newbie here ;)

 

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I did update squadrons to be much more in line with BoX.

 

Structures are not recorded in your score.  At the moment they are not included in the mission logs produced by the game.  I was told that if I designated the structure as belonging to a side it would be.  I have yet to try that.

 

Your flight mates did not attack ... maybe because there were no units around?  I would not expect them to attack the bridge but they should attack any units (AAA, trucks, etc.) in the area. 

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20 minutes ago, FarflungWanderer said:

Hey, Pat, is there any way to configure how many flights you do in a day, or is it random like with the built-in Career?

 

The short answer is no. 

 

A bit longer: There are aspects of PWCG (quite a few of them) that assume a minimum of one day.  Back in the days of RoF one flight per day was more than enough combat opportunities.  In BoX it would be desirable to do multiple flights in a day, but it would take a non trivial coding effort to turn that around.  Never say never, but probably not any time soon.

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One thing I am missing is, that the bombers my flight escorts or intercepts, really attack their target, instead of flying to the target, turning round, and RTB with the bombs still on board.

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2 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

One thing I am missing is, that the bombers my flight escorts or intercepts, really attack their target, instead of flying to the target, turning round, and RTB with the bombs still on board.

 

They are being told to attack.  From what I have seen sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

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2 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

They are being told to attack.  From what I have seen sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

OK Patrick, thanks for the answer. Of course I can only speak about what the AAR tells, because I don't observe them all the time. But the AAR never shows anything destroyed by them. Bombers that fly somewhere else, outside of my visual range destroy regularely targets. But the bombers my squadron intercepts, usually jettison their bombs when heavily damaged, even when on their way back to base. But what might be the reason here is, that I very often observed in the old campaign system, that only one bomber of formations, I guess the leader, dropped its bombs, while the other bombers took them back to base. This AI is simply not very satisfying.

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24 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

OK Patrick, thanks for the answer. Of course I can only speak about what the AAR tells, because I don't observe them all the time. But the AAR never shows anything destroyed by them. Bombers that fly somewhere else, outside of my visual range destroy regularely targets. But the bombers my squadron intercepts, usually jettison their bombs when heavily damaged, even when on their way back to base. But what might be the reason here is, that I very often observed in the old campaign system, that only one bomber of formations, I guess the leader, dropped its bombs, while the other bombers took them back to base. This AI is simply not very satisfying.

 

I usually make the AI targets something relatively small, which might account for the lack of feedback.  This is for performance reasons.  Larger target groups might make the AI drop more bombs, but that comes at a cost.  I really just want the AI to drop with the leader, which is how it was really done.  

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Hallo. Thank you for the version 4.0.  :-)

 

I startet a new campaign - and that time i thougt it would be great to have one skin for every squadron. well at lest for the german side. So i began to make 4 skins for the StuKas (one for every Squadron) - it worked.

So i just made the same step for the other squadrons (all He111; Ju88; Bf110 and the other 109's) :

 

"skins": [
    {
      "skinName": "Bf110E2_IZG26",
      "planeType": "Bf110E2",
      "startDate": "19411001",
      "endDate": "19430331",
      "squadId": 20101026,
      "country": "Germany",
      "category": "Squadron",
      "definedInGame": false
    }
  ],

but in the Game they have still the default skin - only my own Squadron and all Stukas are different). The error rapport wrote: ".......Invalid plane for squadron skin <20101026><Bf110E2_IZG26......" (thats just the exampel for the Bf110's, but the rest is similar). what did i wrong? :-D

 

Many greetings from Sweden

Micha

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15 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

They are being told to attack.  From what I have seen sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

 

I see this same behavior in the Career also.

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Hi everyone

 

Why can't i seemingly get the f2 jump to a friendly plane spectator view in missions generated by PWCG. My friends and i use PWCG to create cooperative games that we fly as a team against the AI. The server has spectator allowed. but when a player dies they often cant spectate and are rooted to the place they died unless the battle is actually overhead of that spot. Is there a way to fix this like it used to work in the old original IL2/IL2-FB days?

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9 hours ago, ozziggy said:

Hi everyone

 

Why can't i seemingly get the f2 jump to a friendly plane spectator view in missions generated by PWCG. My friends and i use PWCG to create cooperative games that we fly as a team against the AI. The server has spectator allowed. but when a player dies they often cant spectate and are rooted to the place they died unless the battle is actually overhead of that spot. Is there a way to fix this like it used to work in the old original IL2/IL2-FB days?

I'm not really sure.  PWCG support for coop play is minimal at the moment. 

 

Also, you are talking about "fixing" something to work like the old original IL2 - BoX is a totally different product.  is this something that you know works in BoX and you want PWCG support for it or is it a feature that you would like to see in BoX?

 

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Thanks for the latest update Pat. Am thoroughly enjoying PWCG at the moment, all these additions/improvements are really adding an awesome dynamic feel to the campaign.

 

With the addition of taxing and parking up after landing it's got me wondering, do you think it will ever be possible to have to start up and taxi onto the runway with your flight at the start of each mission? This seems like such an integral part of any flight sim to me, along with tower and (proper) wingman commands, and it never ceases to amaze me that the devs continue to ignore this aspect of the game.

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I think it should be possible to add cold starts with taxi to runway, and I've designed the taxi paths with this in mind, but it's not that high on my priority list (as I expect I'd get bored of it pretty quickly).

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@Murleen Thanks for the reply Murleen, and the awesome additions! 

 

That's awesome to hear, I was under the impression it may not be possible (I think I remember someone on here saying so in the past), at least for the AI. I hear you, although personally I find it one of the best aspects about flying online, and one that is noticeably lacking when going back to singleplayer. I tend to find appearing on the runway 30 seconds before takeoff rather jarring and slightly immersion killing, but that's just me :biggrin:. Hopefully with the help of skilled people such as yourself it becomes an option in the near future.

Edited by Stlg13/Sgt_Schultz

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1 hour ago, Murleen said:

I think it should be possible to add cold starts with taxi to runway, and I've designed the taxi paths with this in mind, but it's not that high on my priority list (as I expect I'd get bored of it pretty quickly).

 

I would not mind having that as an option one can select on a per mission basis. I would enjoy it at times, but would not want to do it every time.

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I'm not sure if there is a way to tell the AI to taxi to the runway. form up on the runway,, and then take off in formation.  That's what would have to happen to do it right.  If it was doable then it would have to be taxi out one at a time, get formed up, and then when the last plane was in place trigger an event to make the leader go.  The take off in formation part already exists.

 

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50 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

I'm not sure if there is a way to tell the AI to taxi to the runway. form up on the runway,, and then take off in formation.  That's what would have to happen to do it right.  If it was doable then it would have to be taxi out one at a time, get formed up, and then when the last plane was in place trigger an event to make the leader go.  The take off in formation part already exists.

 

Yeah that's what I recall being said. If it can't be implemented properly for those reasons, it might still be a cool (and unique) feature to add to lone wolf missions?, and would set them apart as well as making it only an occasional occurrence, so as to prevent some people from getting too "bored" of it ;).

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Actually, once you have the taxi paths defined, it's as simple as having the planes start at the parking location instead of on the runway. Once the take off command is activated, the AI will then taxi to the runway, form up in staggered formation and then take off when they're all ready. In the mission editor I've only tried it with AI planes so far, so I don't know if there are any issues once one of the planes is the player (e.g. how precise does the player have to be in where they stop on the runway?)

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2 hours ago, Murleen said:

In the mission editor I've only tried it with AI planes so far, so I don't know if there are any issues once one of the planes is the player (e.g. how precise does the player have to be in where they stop on the runway?)

In scripted campaigns like 'Fire and Ice' or the 'Butcher' campaign, the player has to reach a certain distance behind the AI aircraft in front of him, and will then hear his radio call, that he is ready for takeoff. Maybe you ask NETSCAPE or Jade_Monkey how it is triggered. The question is, will PWCG recognize in which position the player has to be on the runway with different numbers of planes and different positions for the player according to his increasing rank.

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15 hours ago, Murleen said:

Actually, once you have the taxi paths defined, it's as simple as having the planes start at the parking location instead of on the runway. Once the take off command is activated, the AI will then taxi to the runway, form up in staggered formation and then take off when they're all ready. In the mission editor I've only tried it with AI planes so far, so I don't know if there are any issues once one of the planes is the player (e.g. how precise does the player have to be in where they stop on the runway?)

 

@Murleen I'll believe when I see it ;). But in all seriousness this awesome to hear

 

@Yogiflight Good point, I hope the inherent randomness of PWCG wouldn't make it any more difficult to implement.

 

On a side note, I don't know about anyone else, but I can't believe how much the latest additions have made a difference in gameplay. I'm actually trying to nurse my damaged aircraft back to base now, rather than just ditching or bailing out. Not to mention being exceedingly more careful on each sortie, and actually caring about each aircraft/pilot loss. The other really cool effect has been being able to suppress enemy squadrons in your area. Over the cause of a few intercept missions I've almost been able to completely ground two bomber squadrons, after inflicting heavy losses on them (including all their ranking pilots). Thanks again Pat :salute:.

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