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Hope for a patch today?

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4.13...   At last!!!  :biggrin:  :biggrin: :biggrin:  :biggrin:  :biggrin:  

 

Awesomeness !!!

:biggrin:

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What an unsuspected update... for 1946 :D 

 

I thought they had stopped working on it for a moment.

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Reve_etrange posted an airfoil calculator in the Yak flap thread if it is of any use. I haven't experimented with it but it seems pertinent.

 

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/foil3.html

Getting drag figures from 2D aerofoil analysis is nothing like a 3D wing model which again is nothing like the whole plane model.

 

Drag estimation is literally the hardest process of aerodyamic design and is a long iterative process that that is not really an exact process all the way until wind tunnel and flight testing

 

I have devised quite a smart flight test to calculate the drag and lift coefficients for the Bos aircraft in game. I will start with the Yak clean vs Yak with flaps. Im an aerodynamics major with real flight testing experience, so I will write a formal report on this and publish my findings.

 

What I need to know from the devs is the figures the game engine uses for empty weight of each aircraft not what they are meant to be from historic sources although I will have to use these if I don't get them from the devs.

 

I would also like to know if unlimited fuel is selected does the fuel mass stay constant at the selected level? Seems obvious that it does but I just wanted to check

Edited by [TBC]AeroACE
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Im hoping to:

1Hear a timeline for EA-BoM

2See the beautiful MiG-3

3hear that f11 is coming back

:salute:

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Im hoping to:

1Hear a timeline for EA-BoM

2See the beautiful MiG-3

3hear that f11 is coming back

:salute:

 

We already know when the I-16 is getting released. We already know when the summer maps are geting released.

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+1 for at least 64 player MPs :

 

We are reaching the limit on Wednesday’s French coop mission and could enlist more people.

 

Also with the organized coop that are going on since recently ( DBS Friday Bomber / SYN Blood skies) I guess we willreach the limit quite fast..

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What do you think is wrong with Yak's flaps?

 

Sorry but.....have you actually played this game recently?

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We already know when the I-16 is getting released. We already know when the summer maps are geting released.

More* of a timeline. is that better? :P

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Thank you Zak.

Always welcome. If something's not working properly we'll find it out and take care of it.

Sorry but.....have you actually played this game recently?

Sure.

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Getting drag figures from 2D aerofoil analysis is nothing like a 3D wing model which again is nothing like the whole plane model.

 

Drag estimation is literally the hardest process of aerodyamic design and is a long iterative process that that is not really an exact process all the way until wind tunnel and flight testing

 

I have devised quite a smart flight test to calculate the drag and lift coefficients for the Bos aircraft in game. I will start with the Yak clean vs Yak with flaps. Im an aerodynamics major with real flight testing experience, so I will write a formal report on this and publish my findings.

 

What I need to know from the devs is the figures the game engine uses for empty weight of each aircraft not what they are meant to be from historic sources although I will have to use these if I don't get them from the devs.

 

I would also like to know if unlimited fuel is selected does the fuel mass stay constant at the selected level? Seems obvious that it does but I just wanted to check

Perhaps I should have posted a clearer disclaimer. I didn't say it was THE tool. I implied it may be a useful tool. I'm not an engineer, just a pilot. I look forward to your test results.

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I like to see correct FMs, and if the flaps are truly off then they need to be fixed. Would be nice for actual data as to what should happen and not the typical "its wrong but I don't have any data other than a test that a person did that could actually be flawed." I have played the Yak a lot with great success, but I guess I'm in the minority that doesn't reach for the flaps unless I'm landing.

 

Although, if the Yak with flaps down is causing you to not enjoy the game that seems to be a problem and not with the flaps. I have had no problems in the 109 or 190 engaging and disengaging Yaks, with or without flaps, but it appears to be greater expectations of success that is the problem. Just saying, even with the Yak flap drag "fixed" I suspect the Yak will still be a point of contention for enjoyment of the game for some. Unless it's a turkey shoot...

 

As for server numbers, I'd like to see that increased as well but when I'm on a server that has numbers I've never had an issue finding an engagement.

Edited by FuriousMeow

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I like to see correct FMs, and if the flaps are truly off then they need to be fixed. Would be nice for actual data as to what should happen and not the typical "its wrong but I don't have any data other than a test that a person did that could actually be flawed." I have played the Yak a lot with great success, but I guess I'm in the minority that doesn't reach for the flaps unless I'm landing.

 

Although, if the Yak with flaps down is causing you to not enjoy the game that seems to be a problem and not with the flaps. I have had no problems in the 109 or 190 engaging and disengaging Yaks, with or without flaps, but it appears to be greater expectations of success that is the problem. Just saying, even with the Yak flap drag "fixed" I suspect the Yak will still be a point of contention for enjoyment of the game for some. Unless it's a turkey shoot...

 

As for server numbers, I'd like to see that increased as well but when I'm on a server that has numbers I've never had an issue finding an engagement.

 

I agree.. but as for the MP problems.. I don't think that 64 players will necessarily fix it either..  More people ned to use BOSL.. Everytime I log on there I see Emil.. and that is basically It.. Sometimes one or two others..  We need to use what is already available .. IMO at least..

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I agree.. but as for the MP problems.. I don't think that 64 players will necessarily fix it either..  More people ned to use BOSL.. Everytime I log on there I see Emil.. and that is basically It.. Sometimes one or two others..  We need to use what is already available .. IMO at least..

 

Today are 82 people that fly Multiplayer. Weekends I counted around 100. If I fly Multiplayer many complain about the FMs. Specially the Yak Flaps FM. However I managed to fly the Bf-109 above 700 km/h with flaps down without to damage the flaps. Not sure if this is correct, too.

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No one will never complain about FMs.

 

Fact of the matter is, the other side is so certain the Russian aircraft are crap and should fall out of the sky if you just look at them simply due to the fact that early in the war there were two things going against the VVS: Quality, some aircraft would fall apart in flight, and secondly pilot skill, there were simply not that many good pilots due to the culling of the military forces. When LuftWaffe pilots encountered skilled pilots, they would limp away licking their wounds at best or be in their chutes at worse. The Yak is a very good airplane, and with a good person controlling it should absolutely put up a good fight and, gasp, down the superior 109s.

 

Additionally, I just tested the Yak's flaps in level flight. I ran full throttle as the Yak accelerated. It was rapidly accelerating to 400km/h when I deployed full flaps at which point acceleration stopped and speed held steady until slightly dropping. I raised flaps and quickly began to accelerate again.

 

So no drag on Yak flaps? I think more "I got shot down by a Yak and I'm clearly superior so it must be something else like the flaps!"


I agree.. but as for the MP problems.. I don't think that 64 players will necessarily fix it either..  More people ned to use BOSL.. Everytime I log on there I see Emil.. and that is basically It.. Sometimes one or two others..  We need to use what is already available .. IMO at least..

 

Totally agree, everyone flocks to the server with the most numbers and then shies away from populating others. I have many times kicked off server populating by simply joining a server, and doing ground attack runs, then someone else would join and within a half hour there were 20 people.

 

Server numbers truly are not the issue, populating the unpopulated servers is the issue. The server missions are very good and outstanding with lots of goals to be accomplished aside from just dogfighting. So many complained about the mission builder and how that impacted the ability to enjoy MP but now that there are missions on the servers with objectives that matter no one does them.

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No one will never complain about FMs.

 

Fact of the matter is, the other side is so certain the Russian aircraft are crap and should fall out of the sky if you just look at them simply due to the fact that early in the war there were two things going against the VVS: Quality, some aircraft would fall apart in flight, and secondly pilot skill, there were simply not that many good pilots due to the culling of the military forces. When LuftWaffe pilots encountered skilled pilots, they would limp away licking their wounds at best or be in their chutes at worse. The Yak is a very good airplane, and with a good person controlling it should absolutely put up a good fight and, gasp, down the superior 109s.

 

Additionally, I just tested the Yak's flaps in level flight. I ran full throttle as the Yak accelerated. It was rapidly accelerating to 400km/h when I deployed full flaps at which point acceleration stopped and speed held steady until slightly dropping. I raised flaps and quickly began to accelerate again.

 

So no drag on Yak flaps? I think more "I got shot down by a Yak and I'm clearly superior so it must be something else like the flaps!"

 

Boooooooooooouh... we are all wicked german fanboys and we want to shoot down russian planes more easily !!! Isn't it ?

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15470-yak-1-flaps-down-arcadish-behaviour/?p=246385

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I was hoping for some MiG-3 pics personally. I'm not disappointed though because I had a feeling they are saving it for the anniversary dev diary #100. I have to agree such a special plane deserves such special attention :)

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When LuftWaffe pilots encountered skilled pilots, they would limp away licking their wounds at best or be in their chutes at worse. The Yak is a very good airplane, and with a good person controlling it should absolutely put up a good fight and, gasp, down the superior 109s.

 

 

 

Where are you getting all your 'facts' from 'meow because this 'stuff' you keep coming up with sounds more to me like soviet propaganda than anything that could actually be substantiated.  Maybe you could provide some references?

 

And while it's true the VVS suffered, like all soviet institutions of the time, from Stalinist paranoia, Soviet aviation had been well blooded in war long before the Luftwaffe came knocking.  So, perhaps you should re-think your usual list of excuses and fabrications.

 

Oh yeah, and for the record, going down in a 'chute' isn't the worst think that can happen to you in air combat.

Edited by Wulf

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Fix the Yak is actually a "strategic" solution for the multiplayer future, but the same is for 64 players. A lot of people can't join the server because of 48 players, my squadron mates for ex. We can join usually only with two or three pilots when we could do it with six or seven.

 

64 players was also promised as standard number for BoS. I remember this very well.

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64 players was also promised as standard number for BoS. I remember this very well.

Or 100 like we had back in October. Servers are no longer exclusively hosted by 777 so they can rasie it to whatever ammount they want and leave the decision of using player limits to the comunity server hosters.

 

Hopefully the Yak - flap issue reccieves enought investigation and eventually will be solved. Maybe I should get started about the Stuka engine rev bug at takeoff? Or the un-overreving of some aircraft at near Vne speeds? Or the lack of influrence of mixture adjustments on most aircraft? Those have been existing since early acess alpha by now.

 

FM work is hairy and time consuming but an essential part of flight sim development. I hope it gets carried on.

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I had read about the Yak flap behavior for a while and finally decided to give it a test.  This is a simple test so maybe I'm missing something.  The claim seems to be that you can deploy the flaps in a Yak without any drag penalty.  (or at least that seems to be one of the main claims)  If that is true, shouldn't I be able to maintain constant speed with flaps in either the up or down position.  So what I did is I got into a Yak at 2500 meters, trimmed it out, set autopilot and set the engine for constant flight.  I got up to a nice stable cruising speed of 485 kph.  Then I lowered the flaps.  The effect was an instant drop in speed.  Within a minute I was down to 350 kph where it seemed to stabilize.  I then raised the flaps and the speed climbed back up to 485 kph (although it took longer to climb than it did to drop).  Wouldn't this be indicative of a drag penalty?

 

Ps:  I saw some claims of combat flaps of 10%.  In a Lagg I can set flaps to 10% w/o a problem, but in a Yak it's either full flaps or no flaps.  Where is the combat flap setting in a Yak?

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The claim seems to be that you can deploy the flaps in a Yak without any drag penalty. 

 

You missed the claim.

 

Also, deploying flaps at that speed should damage them, because you know... they are LANDING flaps, not combat like some people like to do. 

 

About combat flaps, I guess you misinterpretated, the 190 has it, and its not 10%, its 10 degrees.

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The flaps of the Yak are pneumatik, because of that they get pushed in at high speeds. 

 

I think that the problem with them is that the pushing in effect is to pronounced.

While putting them down at high speeds should push the flaps in, they also should get damadged a lot more and sooner. 

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Landing flaps are no meant to be deployed at high speed or in a fight. On the Bf 109 E for exampe flaps must not be deployed beyond 250 km/h or they can and will be damaged. Fighter pilots in WW2 feared nothing more than stuck flaps after take off, a sure deathtrap. Even worse if this happenes in a dogfight.

 

The overall claim of drag penalty seems misleading. I rememebr the discussion being more about critical angle of attacks which were claimed as too high for Yak with deployed flaps. That way it actually gained a lower turn time with landing flaps deployed than retracted, because the pilot ingame can pull the aircraft more than he should without stalling.

 

Also drag should increase drasticly with increasing AoA once flaps are fully deployed. That however is poorly measurable ingame.

 

It certainly needs to be looked at by a dev since as long as they don't provide us the tools or their FM code lines, nobody but them can check this issue properly. We can only notice it

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka

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There is no visual clue that the flaps are getting pushed in at high speed.  (at least not on my test) That doesn't mean it isn't modeled, just that there is no visual representation of that effect.  I certainly could see that damage might follow deployment at high speed.  Does anyone know if Russian Yak manuals have a maximum speed for deploying them? 

 

I've never tried deploying the flaps in a turn fight but it sure seems like the drastic speed drop would hurt more than the lift would help!

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I've never tried deploying the flaps in a turn fight but it sure seems like the drastic speed drop would hurt more than the lift would help!

Speed drop isn't the worst.

post-1379-0-83594100-1336498658.jpgair_002a_7.gif

This is what happens if you deploy flaps. Your angle of attack changes so that you can't pull the airfoil at as high angles as in clean configuration. In a turn you angle of attack is constantly positive. Deploying flaps would automaticly mean you max angle you can pull the airplane without stalling decreases. At landing flaps configuration a WW2 fighter with high stall speed should not be able to turn safely below Vne for deployed flaps, not to mention fight.

 

Additionally flaps are also effected by G loads. A usual turn can have 2-3 G depending on your airspeed. Thats a considerable factor for the total strain of your flaps.

 

Also flaps have a destinctive lift - drag balance. Combat flaps providet the best compromise between lift and drag while landing flaps provided a much higher increase in drag than lift to help reducing altitude faster. It is the total opposite of what you want in combat where all depends on performance.

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka

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Still my question remains, why would anyone (in game) deploy landing flaps in combat?  I losts 140 kph in  a big hurry!  Doesn't seem like any advantage would be would be worth it.  

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Still my question remains, why would anyone (in game) deploy landing flaps in combat?  I losts 140 kph in  a big hurry!  Doesn't seem like any advantage would be would be worth it.  

That's the question. According to critics the Yak can hover midair with flaps full ydeployed. Speed obviously isn't an issue here but wrong lift-drag proportion and / or wrong max AoA calculation preventing any stalls.

 

If you pass the crit AoA your lift drops rapidly. That does not seem to bother the Yak much.

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SYN_Mike!

 

Do you not find it strange that the Yak is flown with flaps down (100%) on the deck or even at high altitude during combat turn and climbing without a penalty in energy?

 

Have you noticed that?

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Where are you getting all your 'facts' from 'meow because this 'stuff' you keep coming up with sounds more to me like soviet propaganda than anything that could actually be substantiated.  Maybe you could provide some references?

 

Any of the Black Cross / Red Star books will suffice for that. 

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There is no visual clue that the flaps are getting pushed in at high speed.  (at least not on my test) That doesn't mean it isn't modeled, just that there is no visual representation of that effect.  I certainly could see that damage might follow deployment at high speed.  Does anyone know if Russian Yak manuals have a maximum speed for deploying them? 

 

I've never tried deploying the flaps in a turn fight but it sure seems like the drastic speed drop would hurt more than the lift would help!

 

I am on the fence on the whole issue.  First of all I have to trust that the Devs are aware of the effects of pneumatic flaps.  As someone who flies a plane with the modern day equivalent of pneumatic flaps my perception is, the pilot in the Yak, only has to throw the flap switch and the plane ports a blast of compressed air to the wings and the flaps drop.  If Airspeed is high enough (480 kmh, fx) the flaps either come down forcefully, gradually, or not at all.  It all depends on the power of the pneumatic system AND the current airspeed at the time.

 

 If the system is powerful enough to blow the flaps down at any airspeed, ie. forcefully, then it is no different than any other system and as a reasonable man I would think damage to the flaps possible at higher airspeed.  HOWEVER, if the purpose of the design was not to come down at all until airflow relaxed ie. gradually as the A/C decelerated (say 300KMH, fx) then I would not expect damage to the flaps, caused by airflow, and I would expect a gradual increase in turn performance until the Yak bled to a Full Flap airspeed.  That said I would expect the Yak to be STUCK, and NOT be able to increase airspeed beyond a full flap state, and therefore the power of the pneumatic system would not be overcome by a subsequent acceleration.  In this configuration I would also think a pilot attempting to accelerate could overspeed and damage the flaps if care was not taken.  

 

The OTHER aspect of this discussion that I fail to see considered to this point is that Airspeed limits are not the only limits that govern when a pilot can deploy flaps.  G is another limit.  All combat aircraft that are not fly by wire generally had a G limit to deployed flaps.  Is this modeled?  If you deploy full flaps in a Yak can the flaps be over-stressed at any point in the process of a highspeed, flaps-deployed, combat turn?  I ask because I don't know.  I'm not an Aerospace engineer, nor a career Yak-1 pilot.

 

I think this is the real issue.  Said a different way, Does the sim model the full effect of pneumatic flaps or not?  Does the research on the Yak ever indicate that flap usage in combat was a normal or expected tactic?  If not then the benefit of flaps in the game could be over-modeled and should be looked at.  If it does model it, players may not be seeing the cheduling of the Yak's flaps in game because the animation doesn't show it.  Therefore many people are concluding that the flaps are fully out when in fact they are not and are at some compressed stage in the flight model.  This leads to threads like this....

 

So to summarize:

 

1.  Was the Yak designed in such a way that the pneumatic flaps protected the pilot/plane from over-speeding the flaps?

2.  If not, at what speeds would you expect to see the flaps begin to deploy against an airflow load?  What airspeed is that?  Also, should this result in flap damage then?  Once fully deployed what if any speed could cause damage?

3.  Was there an associated G-limit to fully deployed Yak Flaps?  If so, what is it, and at that airspeed could the Yak actually pull enough G to cause damage?

4.  Was deploying flaps a common occurrence in RL?  If NOT then there may be a problem if yak pilots, myself included, find flaps necessary and advantageous.

5.  If all these things are modeled, and Airspeed / G-limit are not a concern then commentary from the Devs to put this aspect to bed would be desirable and prudent.

6.  If all these things are modelled, the Yak was commonly flown Full Flap in combat IRL and the Dev's designed the Yak as such, a confirmation statement would be desirable and prudent.

7.  It may be that there very well is a problem, and while I hate the tone these threads tend to take on, and I know it hurts to be a dev highly criticized, these discussions are healthy for the game if not for the sense of community. 

Edited by TheElf
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Syn vorlander!  I have not flown this sim much in a while, when I fly it is usually in RoF. Until today, the only time I ever deployed the flaps on a Yak was on landing.  Today, after reading this, I tried it out in level flight and suffered sever drop in speed when I deployed flaps. So to say that there is no energy penalty seems wrong.  Does the benifit out weigh the penalty?  I don't know, I've never tried it in a fur ball.  Is it unrealistic for Yak pilots to fly with flaps deployed in combat?  I don't know.  Are the flaps fully deployed or does it just appear that they are because the game doesn't model the visual effect of wind resistance holding the flaps at less than full?  I don't know.  Frankly, I don't think anyone does or will until the devs look into it.

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@ SYN_Mike

 

Does the benefit out weigh the penalty? YES, and that's the reason for the flaps down most of the time and being used by Yak pilots.

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@ SYN_Mike

 

Does the benefit out weigh the penalty? YES, and that's the reason for the flaps down most of the time and being used by Yak pilots.

 

If I see any enemy aircraft dropping flaps I laugh...in my opinion there is no gain from doing this against people who fly a 109 properly and they will die.

 

Maybe something needs fixing but it really shouldn't be an issue

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I'll have to give it a try, but I;ll be surprised if its more than a wash for the yak flyers.

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I have not played MP yet, but have played many QMBs with the Yak testing the flap issue.

 

first, deploying the flaps at over 400 kmh does risk damaging the flaps, but not every time.

 

second, deploying flaps at normal turning combat speeds, i.e. 300-350 kmh acts as you would expect, lift and drag are increased, stall speed is lowered. The 150 kmh speed penalty seems to be what others have reported.

 

Personally, I dont see that it gives such a big advantage to Yak pilots. Yes, it gives the Yak a tighter turning circle, but at the expense of burning off a lot of energy. I find it most useful if you are at stall speed in a turning fight and just want to get to get your ACs nose a little higher. Of course, if you are piloting a 109 or a 190, why are you in a turning fight with a Yak?

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