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Bearcat

Who in this community has coding experience?

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I don't there is a need to have the devs decompose the task for us. People who can program have a pretty clear idea of that, I think (see e.g. post #5).

 

I am a professional developer, but I won't commit to take on a big task during my free time, for the simple reason that I can only work as long as motivation lasts, and there is no way to tell how these things go. That's why I asked if Pat's campaign generator was open-source. That would allow me (and others) to take a look without commitment when it suits me, and work with it on my own terms, at my own pace. And if/when I get tired of it, someone else can pick it up. Open development is also a good way for people to see how development is coming along.

 

From the game's side, it would be nice to have two things in the long term:

  1. Add a "mission output" CMU to the FME that allows to dump arbitrary strings in the game logs. That would make it possible to extract information computed by the mission logic (e.g. enemy forces spotted during a recon mission). Currently, I don't know if it's possible to recognize things beyond kills. There's already a lot that can be done with kills alone, so it's not a blocker, but would be good to have.
  2. Add the ability to launch the game and start a given single player mission, and maybe quit the game when the mission ends. Again, not a must have, but would probably ease the integration of 3rd party tools with the game.
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I don't there is a need to have the devs decompose the task for us. People who can program have a pretty clear idea of that, I think (see e.g. post #5).

 

I am a professional developer, but I won't commit to take on a big task during my free time, for the simple reason that I can only work as long as motivation lasts, and there is no way to tell how these things go. That's why I asked if Pat's campaign generator was open-source. That would allow me (and others) to take a look without commitment when it suits me, and work with it on my own terms, at my own pace. And if/when I get tired of it, someone else can pick it up. Open development is also a good way for people to see how development is coming along.

 

From the game's side, it would be nice to have two things in the long term:

  1. Add a "mission output" CMU to the FME that allows to dump arbitrary strings in the game logs. That would make it possible to extract information computed by the mission logic (e.g. enemy forces spotted during a recon mission). Currently, I don't know if it's possible to recognize things beyond kills. There's already a lot that can be done with kills alone, so it's not a blocker, but would be good to have.
  2. Add the ability to launch the game and start a given single player mission, and maybe quit the game when the mission ends. Again, not a must have, but would probably ease the integration of 3rd party tools with the game.

 

 

I've said a hundred times, Pat will give his code to any legit programmer who wants to tackle it.

 

Jason

I am really having problems to understand Loft's thoughts. :scratch_one-s_head:

 

In Il-2 1946 user-made campaigns were by far the most popular game mode, which can be seen when you look at the download numbers for Il-2 campaigns at Mission4Today, some of them have more than 10.000 downloads. The amount of work to add such an option inside the game would be relatively low, compared to other BoS/BoM features.

 

To be honest, what I read in this thread makes me pessimistic about the future of BoS/BoM. In my opinion 3rd party apps are no adequate replacement for missing content inside the game.

 

What you want is not content, it is a feature.

 

Jason

Something as complex as a campaign generator would be nice but it isn't essential. Perhaps it's possible to just add the ability for the Mission Editor to string together canpaigns and track stats, add pilot names etc. that's basically what Desastersoft did. Theirs isn't a generator, it's a campaign set of missions with career stats and awards. A "Career Campaign". That's not as complex as a full blown generator and maybe more suited to

depicting a single battle and specific units.

If the ME had this ability it would open up new possibilities.

Just give the community the tools within the ME to create this "career" style of campaign.

 

Christ. They already exist. You're just missing a GUI to manage it.

 

Jason

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You're just missing a GUI to manage it.

Good to know, thanks!

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@Bearcat and Jason

 

I really wished you guys had posted this a month ago, while I still had some free time. I have a fair amount of experience in coding... and a rather unhealthy passion for flight sims.

 

Unfortunately I just landed a new job and I will definitely not have time to work on a project like this.

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It will happen.. it's just a matter of time. All we need is the right person at the right time.

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Would the GUI of a 3rd party campaign system necessarily have to run outside the game or would the program structure of BoS allow an integration inside the game? An example of what I am thinking about is the campaign menue Desastersoft added to CloD. The integration was possible without any involvement from the developers, as far as I know.

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The only person in the company interested in doing this is me so please don't push for Moscow to be involved. I'm all you got.

 

...

 

That's it. No involvement from the team needed.

 

Jason

 

Thank you for the effort Jason, I really hope you are successful with this project because I think IL2 franchise depends on it (I am not talking about few hundred die hard fans here that will buy whatever is anounced with IL2 name in it, but larger audience and sales). But it is a really sad thing to read (that no one else but you in the whole company understands what proper content means for your own product).

 

With this in mind, I'll continue to play and support ROF while it goes since it offers decent content offline and online. BOS however is going on ice, and BOM is not even an option except on some 70% discount 3 years down the line, and that only if you succeed pulling this off.

 

People interested in pushing out only planes and maps without any real substance underneath don't deserve further support. 777 should look at Frontier, they made Elite Dangerous as a decent shell just like IL2:BOS is now, and then they expanded it and continue to expand it with content. E:D is well on the way to become benchmark for all other space sims just because of this.

Edited by EAF19_Cyclops

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Would the GUI of a 3rd party campaign system necessarily have to run outside the game or would the program structure of BoS allow an integration inside the game? An example of what I am thinking about is the campaign menue Desastersoft added to CloD. The integration was possible without any involvement from the developers, as far as I know.

Yes I like how clean that is compared to PWCG which runs its own GUI. RoF created a mod to launch PW from the RoF game but BoS has no mods on mode.

There are extra campaigns for RoF like the St. Mithiel Campaign which launch from the RoF GUI so it's possible.

Edited by SharpeXB

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According to the ROF manual for the mission editor, you can use the media MCU to play Flash files. If the Flash player in BOS allows you to write files, or communicate in any way with processes other than BOS, you could steer the dynamic mission generator from the game. It would be a bit weird maybe because you would have to start a mission to enter campaign/career mode.

 

It's a big IF, though. Wouldn't surprise me if the Flash player didn't allow access to the host for security reasons.

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There are extra campaigns for RoF like the St. Mithiel Campaign which launch from the RoF GUI so it's possible.

That's not what I mean. The campaigns in RoF used the existing menue structure created by the developers and just added some background graphics. They have no intention to add such a feature to BoS, so I am talking about the possibility to integrate a completely new menue created without the involvement of the development team.

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That's not what I mean. The campaigns in RoF used the existing menue structure created by the developers and just added some background graphics. They have no intention to add such a feature to BoS, so I am talking about the possibility to integrate a completely new menue created without the involvement of the development team.

 

No guys, please understand. You cannot add menus to the existing in-game GUI. Everything has to be outside the game itself.

 

The Flash feature in the ME is for content to be played, nothing else.

 

Jason

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If you're looking for someone to work for little or nothing, but be dedicated enough to finish the job, what about a programming student at uni? Pat gives him the code and some pointers,The community can supply the historical data. The student gets a project he can use towards his university projects and we get a version of PWCG for BoS.

 

If that's feasable everyone wins.

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How about a simplest of simple campaign systems to get things off the ground. No side or squadron selection, no skin selection, no transferring to other airfields, no automated mission generation. Instead:

  1. A number of missions are made manually to form a campaign. Order does not matter, all based from the same airfield flying the same aircraft with the same generic squadron skin (more advanced later: random variations generated for each mission, but that's another topic)
  2. The Campaign Controller (CC) software, an independent program, chooses a random mission as the next mission in the campaign, putting today's date and weather in the briefing.
  3. The player flies the mission and based on the results, accumulates points, for example for kills (50 points each) or for returning to home base (20 points) if that's trackable, etc. The results, like the ones in Lupson's BOS Parser, are read by the CC.
  4. The CC keeps track of the player's points and based on a table of milestones, a message at the beginning of the next mission(?) tells you that you've received a commendation letter from the squadron leader or whatever as your points reach the next milestone or an event has been reached: "Great work on getting your 10th kill. The Group Captain mentioned that he has high hopes for you. Keep up the good work". If you survive a whole bunch of missions and do well you might get enough points to reach the next promotion milestone, and you'll get a message congratulating you on that promotion. Here's the chance to get creative and immersive in the story telling (calling Feathered_IV).

The CC would keep track of the data in a file on disk, which might be a simple XML file like this: 

<IL2Campaigns>
  <Campaign Name="JG3 Early Stalingrad" StartDate="1943.10.30">
  <Status CurrentDate="1943.11.13"/>
  <Player FirstName="Heinz" LastName="Mueller" XP="530" PlaneKills="2" VehicleKills="4" Rank="FltLt" Awards="SqnLeaderCommendation"/>
  <Squadron name="Staffel 2 III./JG3" plane="Bf109F" skin="Bf109F_winterA"/>
  <MissionsFlown all="intercept3, groundattack5, intercept2, intercept1"/>
  <Milestones>
     <Milestone points="100" act="SqnLdrCommendation">
     <Milestone points="1000" act="GrpLdrCommendation">
     <Milestone points="2000" act="RankAdvance">
  </Milestones>
  <Campaign>
</IL2Campaigns>
Edited by FlyingNutcase
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Hi NC... I still remember your tutorials from the original IL2 MB.. Good to see you chiming in! :salute:

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Indeed, we can not program but we can always learn how to do.  Any website for more training info on that??? 

Edited by Dutch2

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What about adding a stuff like triggers and others to MB, Mr. Wiliams ???

 

It is stand alone program or connected with game engine, if it will be stand alone program why not open or give a people possibility to add a more triggers.

Edited by Zaknafein

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What does Moscow have to say?

Are they to good to tell us what is going on? Or do we just get the reply of, "Moscow wont allow" Sounds really cold war-ish... and childish

 

Heres another one I love reading about a $100 game i purchased

"build it yourself" 

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Good morning, Mickey!

 

What does Moscow have to say?

Are they to good to tell us what is going on? Or do we just get the reply of, "Moscow wont allow" Sounds really cold war-ish... and childish

 

Heres another one I love reading about a $100 game i purchased

"build it yourself" 

 

Good morning from germany, Mickey!

 

Why not simply stay on topic!

And I'am 1000%  sure you won't read s/thg like this. ;)

And another one: ...if you really want to be successfull, ask for help! ;)

Aaaaand why always complainin' 'bout those fu...., friggin' 100 bucks, I' am sure even you thrown out more than 100 for more senseless things, didn't yer??

I already had fun much more than 100 worse!

Have a nice 1 today! :good:

 

yours

v.Greiff

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I get what your saying about fun, what is the price of fun ? The amount of hours I've put in and enjoyed the sim on a daily basis, I've gotten 5,000.00 worth of fun. Makes the ea 100.00 a good investment. With future investment, I do want to see progress in game features. Not just cookie cutter planes and map packs for 80.00, I want to see Moscow adding new features along with the new maps and planes.

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Features are very expensive and our past experience and others have shown us that features give the least bang for their buck. So before anyone gets mad at the team, you must remember that the team the best it can with the resources it has.

 

Jason

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Jason,

 

Have you made any headway at all with the plan that you had regarding a Java developer, with the goal to possibly convert Pats campaign generator over to BoS?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Mick. :)

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Features are very expensive and our past experience and others have shown us that features give the least bang for their buck.

 

I'm very sorry you feel that way.  I wish you and the team every success, however I do not think it will be very much without the narrative features and human element.

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Jason,

 

I am aware of the limit resources the team has to work with, I think they have built a great core with BOS to build off of. As I see it, adding aircraft and a map should be easier this time around, because the foundation is there. I'm just throwing it out there that it would be cool if each installment would make one major feature increase.

 

Example : BOM will be MP features focus, BOK (battle of Kursk) will be SP campaign feature focus, BOA (battle of Africa) will be FMB focus, BOTP (battle of the pacific) will be backwards compatible title consolidation focus ect..ect...ect.

 

I think people are tentative to buy in right now because BOM seems like been there done that with BOS, same stuff just different map and some new planes.

 

There's a great opportunity here for the Franchise to really excel because there's not much competition. I think the dev team should take the risk and increase the size of their team a few personnel, and try to cash in on some of the features the community has been screaming for.

 

The forums have made it pretty clear there's a demand, so why not supply them.

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Jason I understand your point of view but it will not change the facts.

 

If we cant play interesting missions, whatever form they take...

 

This game will die.

 

*Added: On another note, instead of releasing your current campaign system, is there a reason you did not put your efforts into recreating the PWCG?

Edited by 71st_AH_Hessle

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I have a decent amount of experience with Java, and I have had some experience with games,graphics, and GUIS in C++ and Java as well (although these were mostly cartoony children's games like Pirate-themed oregon trail and a 2D flight "game")

 

Depending on the level of commitment I'd need to promise, I'd be interesting in having a look at what I could do with regard to the campaign generator. 

 

Is it open source?  Is anyone else already working on this and needs help?

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What does Moscow have to say?

Are they to good to tell us what is going on? Or do we just get the reply of, "Moscow wont allow" Sounds really cold war-ish... and childish

 

Heres another one I love reading about a $100 game i purchased

"build it yourself" 

 

Except, The entire old Il-2 series that was way more than $100 over the course of 7 years was "build it yourself." Campaign generator was done by a 3rd party, no help from those developers. So not exactly sure why now this is used as an argument to have the developers do more? The old Il-2 series was just a basic GUI, planes, and maps, everything else was by the community.

Edited by FuriousMeow

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Couldn't Jason or the Moscow devs take a little time to spell out what is actually required?

 

Rather than just asking for someone with coding skills, if it was maybe laid out in some sort of list, there may be others who could contribute something to help this project along.

 

It may not achieve anything, but I'm sure it wouldn't take that much of there time just to write down what needs done, or the different things that need done, coding, GUI design, mission templates, storyline, etc......

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

Mick. :)

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Guys,

 

Listen please. I didn't ask BC to make this thread. I let it go for a while to see what would happen, but it's now working against me. But let me again, explain a few things.

 

1. The team in Moscow has nothing to do with this endeavor. It is simply a personal mission of mine to provide the community with an alternative mission generator like PWCG to fulfill a want in the community. The team has their system and it works for a lot of users and it will probably be improved in some way in the future as more updates come out. But I know there is a group that wants something different. Nothing unusual there, was the same in ROF. I know of an app that can provide a lot of what they want if I can have it ported over. Simple idea.

 

2. There is nothing for the development team to explain. Such a generator uses our mission file syntax (language) which is what is spit out when you compile a mission in the ME. If you know the syntax and logic you can build missions without the ME. They are just .txt files. That's all Pat has done with PWCG. But Pat took FULL advantage of our mission tech to make a cool independent system. That's it and is as far as anything the team needs to provide to anyone on this project. So please stop asking the team to provide any help to anyone.

 

3. An entire Campaign system can be built without the team. As was done with the original IL-2. What's missing is simply the role-playing part. That can be provided by parsing the log files and making a GUI to display mission results and "pilot" personalities etc. Essentially that is the basis of what the WOFF team originally did for CFS3 albeit with a little more wrapping, but same general idea. This is also what Pat has already done for ROF and it's pretty damn good. I just need to find someone professional enough and creative enough and passionate enough to help port it over and re-design the GUI with my assistance. Pat has offered to share his PWCG code for ROF to a qualified person and to help bring it half-way. The new guy must finish the job.

 

4. When we get to a certain point, the community can help us by providing historical info about units, battles, locations, awards, pilots etc. And that's the easy part so I am not worried if we get that far.

 

So I am going to close this thread because it's causing too much distraction on a topic that is already, honestly, figured out and folks are attempting to drag the Moscow team into something they are not involved with. I just need the right guy. The first guy who stepped up disappeared for some unknown reason. But this has happened many times when I have attempted to work with 3rd parties. Just the nature of it. Maybe Stallion above will be the right guy??? When I get to a point where I need to find someone else I will make a public plea, but I'm not at that point yet.

 

If any progress is made I will certainly let you guys know.

 

Jason

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