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=BKHZ=Furbs

Trees

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I missed the earlier conversation that started about collidable trees in the other thread.

 

So heres my take on why they are important in a WW2 combat flight sim...

 

1. When chasing a escaping bandit down low there is nothing worse than seeing him dive into a forest and fly at 20ft to evade you, sure i guess you could try and follow him, but there is no chance you can shoot him because of the trees in the way.

 

2. They can also be used to fly low level to a ground target with less chance of being spotted by fighters flying cap above, and leaving no need for skilled down low nap of the earth flying, jumping trees, squeezing between them.

 

3. People can turn off the trees completely with no worry about crashing into them, giving them a better chance of spotting low level contacts than people who leave the trees on.

 

4.The tension of trying to ditch a crippled aircraft is much reduced if you don't have to worry about the trees, no need to quickly scan for a clear landing spot and then try and make it to it.

 

Ok...

 

Please keep on topic, no need to mention the good and bad of past, present or future sims,  try and be bleedin civil to each other. no point scoring :)

Edited by =BKHZ=Furbs

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Well, BoS will have collideable trees, whether people think they are important or not. Not really much point in debating it, really...

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2014 game should have collidable trees. And this game has it so no problem.

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Sorry furbs, didn't see your little footnote..... :P

 

1. if someone has turned into a big wussy and runs away wetting themselves and hiding in trees then aren't they completely out of the fight? stay high and go look for some other wussy to kill or wait for the first one to come back and you will be higher than him, I thought a big rule in real combat was not to get fixated on getting the kill and to keep an advantage.

 

2. I never flew below trees in any sim, can you still see if you do? do the trees not obstruct your vision?

 

3. server settings could enforce a trees on policy?

 

4. agree.

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1.  As a general rule i agree completely, but sometimes your already low down when the fight starts, take offs, landings or ground pounding and if you give up as soon as the wuss dives in the trees, then he's free to turn back and stab you.

 

2. Again im with you 90% of the time, most often im as high as i can go, but if im in a IL2 im getting as low as i can, and tell that to the Dambusters,  Bongo :)

 

3. I think some servers can, yes.

Edited by =BKHZ=Furbs

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Mud missions were quite common during WW2, some medium-bombers squadron were even specialized in these missions (Like squadron 342 for exemple, flying A20 then B25), flying as low as possible, around 15m high all the way to the target, and jumping tree-lines, climbing only just before bombing. Same behavior on return flight, climbing only on the encounter point with the fighter escort.

 

Fighter-bombers also used ultra-low approaches (sometimes 10m/15m high), climbing a bit when on target area to be able to find vehicles to kill. Some Thunderbolds came back from fighter-bomber missions with tree branches pieces between the cylinders...

 

These mud missions are IMO very interesting to fly. Navigation is different (you can't check vs your map since you're to low to have a good landscape vision, so you have to follow roads, railraods or rivers and prey to avoir mistakes when identifying the crossroad that should be the turning point... You also have to fly very concentrate to avoid collision, and prepare the climbing when close to the target the most preciselly possible to have a chance to bomb it on first approach, and avoid staying at bombing height to long... since the higher you are, the best flak target you are too.

 

Good and precise modelling of the landscape, with corresponding collision models (for trees also) is an absolute necessity in order to recreate these mud missions, and to fly them with a believable sense of reality. Without tree collision models, no mud mission is possible.

  • Upvote 1

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FURBS !!

 

my god i thought trees were something GOOD that gave us Oxygene and saved the world and so on. Never thought they were changing the battle outcomes in that way. However, as Stalingrad steppe doesnt have that much of woods the chance of hiding isnt that big. Best, Allons! ;)

Edited by Stab/ZG26-Allons

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Trees pose a huge risk for ground attack and low level flying. If flying through those is inconsequential, then houses, bridges, everything but terra firma should be able to fly through. Or the other popular world element missing from somewhere else but will be present here - lateral traction of wheels on the ground. Makes taking off and landing significantly more difficult but many don't even notice its absence in other titles.

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Not having collidable trees in a flight sim in this day and age is inexcusable. 

Edited by LukeFF
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Luke, when did you get your CMB?

 

Iraq, 2004.

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Please keep on topic, no need to mention the good and bad of past, present or future sims,  try and be bleedin civil to each other. no point scoring :)

Yes, but do we really need 100% of the trees on a map to have collision model? No. It can be "attached" to half of the trees and randomized. All your 4 problems fixed.

Edited by Mac_Messer

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Yes, but do we really need 100% of the trees on a map to have collision model? No. It can be "attached" to half of the trees and randomized. All your 4 problems fixed.

 

 

Sounds good.

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Yup it will definitely be nice to be able to hit trees, no more magical crash landings for me!

 

Then again, my pilot probably isn't very excited...

Edited by 5./JG26Raptorx

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Yes, but do we really need 100% of the trees on a map to have collision model? No. It can be "attached" to half of the trees and randomized. All your 4 problems fixed.

 

Apart from problem 4, if during your forced landing you don't manage to avoid a tree and it happens to be one that doesn't have the collision model then the world will come to an end.

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I think it's hard to avoid the note of Rise of flight since BoS should use the same engine. In RoF every tree has collision model. Even those burned trunks on the front line area. And it seems they cause no problem to the game performance. At least on my 4 years old computer. 

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Apart from problem 4, if during your forced landing you don't manage to avoid a tree and it happens to be one that doesn't have the collision model then the world will come to an end.

I don`t share your opinion. On the contrary, the randomizing of the tree dm would make it even more exciting. Does this tree have dm or not? Guess what, in your scenario, seeing the tree closing in, I`d probably desperately try to evade it. Whether I do evade it or crash because of such maneuver, it doesn`t really matter if it actually has the dm. My knowing it is a 50/50 chance is enough here. Player`s mind does the rest.

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I like to hug trees.   :biggrin:

Sometimes I get a bit too close to my leafy friends in RoF and they rip my wings off.

 

On a more serious note, I think collision models for trees in modern flight sims are an absolute must!

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It will depend on the load for the sim to calculate a collision model for every tree, i would rather vote for better performance then collision models for a single oak 20 km southeast of Morowskaya but given performance i would like this oak to be as hard as it can be..

 

Best, Allons!

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I don`t share your opinion. On the contrary, the randomizing of the tree dm would make it even more exciting. Does this tree have dm or not? Guess what, in your scenario, seeing the tree closing in, I`d probably desperately try to evade it. Whether I do evade it or crash because of such maneuver, it doesn`t really matter if it actually has the dm. My knowing it is a 50/50 chance is enough here. Player`s mind does the rest.

 

 

Well here is the thing, ordinarily I'd be an advocate for putting collideable trees low on the priority list, your point about the players imagination is the reason why, I don't believe the tree has to be collideable in order to get the sense you should avoid them. but it seems that the general feeling is that if you hit a tree you must pay the penalty, therefore only a collision model for every tree can satisfy that, other than that the random collision model works for all other scenarios and would be less drain on the system.

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If you have the perimeter trees in a forest collidable the rest could be randomized and achieve the desired
effect could it not?

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Why discuss something that is already in the game? In RoF the trees are collidable. I see no reason why the devs would make this different for BoS.

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Every tree in ROF has collision damage, BOS will have the same system. In ROF it works well with not much effect on performance on even low/mid machines.

 

As far as BOS end of story it is already there

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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Yes, I get your point, DD_bongodriver.. The sad real thing is that even in this genre there are people who game the game. Honestly, in all my IL2 experience I`ve seen little proof to defend the tree collision model opinion. Although IL2 had many weird exploits which really were unfair to me, but perfectly legitimate from pov of a person who sees gaming the game as the obvious way to win. Hence, even if I do not need the tree collision model at all, I see why people are concerned about lack of it in other games. 

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I don't think I could have bought the game if it didn't have collision damage. 

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Do the trees in ROF or the trees in BOS still turn around and around when you look at them from the air.. I remember the trees turning and staring back at you in ROF like they each had a head of their own attached to them.  It was huge immersion killer. 

 

Anyone know if that's still the case?  Or is that been fixed with the ROF engine yet?

Edited by ATAGBliss

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For some, the movement is an immersion killer. For others, the ability to fly through trees is an immersion killer.

Two different compromise solutions. Pick your choose.

 

Personally I didn't find it that off putting.

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For some, the movement is an immersion killer. For others, the ability to fly through trees is an immersion killer.

Two different compromise solutions. Pick your choose.

 

Personally I didn't find it that off putting.

 

So they still spin around like ballerinas when you look at them?  That's been there since ROF was released :(

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About the spinning trees. I din't notice that for some time. But I'm unable to say if it is because it was removed or I got used to it.

 

Anyway one thing it needs to be noticed. Collision with tree in RoF doesn't necessary mean you get to explode. It's more like real collision with obstacle. 

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I guess i have to fire up RoF again. Can't say i ever noticed spinning trees......

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Why discuss something that is already in the game? In RoF the trees are collidable. I see no reason why the devs would make this different for BoS.

 

Because we are bored waiting for the beta!!!

Do the trees in ROF or the trees in BOS still turn around and around when you look at them from the air.. I remember the trees turning and staring back at you in ROF like they each had a head of their own attached to them.  It was huge immersion killer. 

 

Anyone know if that's still the case?  Or is that been fixed with the ROF engine yet?

 

 

trees will be implemented  like this :P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K39Q9zvQoE

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Anyway one thing it needs to be noticed. Collision with tree in RoF doesn't necessary mean you get to explode. It's more like real collision with obstacle.

 

I must admit that the benefits of the collision model outweighs the drawbacks of the spinning textures for me. The ghost trees or nitroglycerin explosions of other titles lost something after the first time I spun a Camel in from 15000, and had a stand of trees break my fall.

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Just had a try to see the spinning trees.....maybe its a resolution or setting issue, I can see a minute flicker at medium distances as they change LOD or rotate but it is only a couple in a forest, flying past or at them it was not really noticeable at all, perhaps it has been addressed in one the updates?

Anyway the easiest way to test will be in a few weeks when it is released as alpha/beta, am sure the grx engine has had some more updates, speculation at this late point is all a bit pointless and petty :)

 

If it remains excactly like ROF i will be more than happy immersion wise and if it improves very happy, anyway they will be winter trees, not checked that in ROF maybe i should have  ;)

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

 

EDIT: a very quick try on the winter map and it is a little more noticeable, but certainly no deal breaker for me, the Stalingrad trees look different so I guess will just have to wait and see  ;)

Edited by Dakpilot

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Yeah the spinning trees, when looked at close and from above are a bit of an immersion killer. Hopefully they can improve this over time.

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