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So ... what's the verdict on the FW 190 now???


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My 2 cents on this :

 

- Any aeronautic engineer around ? Because the man who made the FM is .... Like with real academic studies .... You may not like how he worked but please, you are gamers , it is his job :)

 

- resistance of a real stick / muscle work for moving it / electrical command = not modeled ingame .... And it was the main reason pilots loved the FW ...

 

- advice of pilots regarding their plane is taking easyness and workload factor hugely... We do not have this IG.

 

- advice of german pilots regarding russian opposition = written post war / cold war context / by people from a nazi society regarding slavic people as "under men" / (as much biased as russian advice) / context where western allied tried to make look they won the war instead of USSR

 

- FW performed poorly on eastern front (russian pilot feared the 109, not the 190) ... Great when radar guided high speed interception on the western front.

 

- Luft whining is just a common place in every video game representing LW (check other game forums ;) ) don't know nor understand why ... Maybe there is a hidden society :)

 

--------------------

 

Gameplay Notice : I love it IG, just a small trick to use it : with your target program or saitek : just reduce the aviable course of your JS (make any movment you make multiplied by 0,900 / 0,850) do it only with FW.... And you'll see : It is a beast far less tricky to fly than with "regular settings"

 

We can do this on ROF curve settings, not in BOS

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- Luft whining is just a common place in every video game representing LW (check other game forums ;) ) don't know nor understand why ... Maybe there is a hidden society

 

[Edited]. If they were german the Luftwhiners would be calld "luftwhiner comrades" or "Sgt. Luftwhine".

Easy to mock on people if youre on the preferred side dude.

Edited by Bearcat
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Actually the changes to the stabilator incidence made the "pitch down flick-roll" issue a non-issue. Of course if you set your plane tail-heavy, you'll face problems....

Agreed. The recent changes help with the violent stalling.

IMHO if now the YAK gets realistic performance I am all good. Mostly.

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Horizontal stabilizator position is still wrong in Fw 190. Trim guage " 0"  IRL mean +2 deg positon of horizontal stab.  So from " 0 " it should be possible only +2 deg  and -3 deg.  IN BOS from "0" position is posible +4 and -1.

 

Also as i said high speed control effectivness in Fw 190 is the worst from all BOS fighters which is totaly wrong. Fw 190 should has the best controllability at high speed.

 

 

BTW all planes even 109 could do nice spins in BOS.  FOr some reason LAgg-3 was changed here some time ago and don't have such nasty spin charactersitic like it had before. Now in LAgg-3 you could recovery from spin in a second. 

 

Not mention that all Russian planes got too high maximum dive speeds and very dubfull roll rates.

 

How Fw 190 could have in BOS  its RL strenght against other fighters if in game such details broke historical realism  ( Russian Utopia?)

Edited by 303_Kwiatek
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[Edited]. If they were german the Luftwhiners would be calld "luftwhiner comrades" or "Sgt. Luftwhine".

Easy to mock on people if youre on the preferred side dude.

I am not russian and like more to play german plane .... On public server I mainly play russian because of balance of team (and sad of it sometime .... Because we are few doing it )

Edited by Bearcat
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My 2 cents on this :

 

- Any aeronautic engineer around ? Because the man who made the FM is .... Like with real academic studies .... You may not like how he worked but please, you are gamers , it is his job :)

...

 

Well there are So many self appointed specialists on this topic, some more vocal than others.... It's just the way it is and always has been.

Edited by SvAF/F19_Klunk
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My 2 cents on this :

 

- Any aeronautic engineer around ? Because the man who made the FM is .... Like with real academic studies .... You may not like how he worked but please, you are gamers , it is his job :)

 

 

Well there are So many self appointed specialists on this topic, some more vocal than others.... It's just the way it is and always has been.

 

So why there is a section in this forum called 'Developer Assistance / Historical Data' when there are developers with aeronautic engineering background are around and know everything?

 

People who criticize the FM are called luftwhiners, but actually people which use such terms are the real whiners!

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I doubt the 190 will ever be considered accurate by its users until its in-game performance is a good 15% better than real life.


People who criticize the FM are called luftwhiners, but actually people which use such terms are the real whiners!

 

Oooh, schnapp!

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- advice of german pilots regarding russian opposition = written post war / cold war context / by people from a nazi society regarding slavic people as "under men" / (as much biased as russian advice) / context where western allied tried to make look they won the war instead of USSR

 

Not really fair; Norbert Hannig's book is pretty good (among others) though his like of the 190 is never really nailed down to anything particular facet of the aircraft

 

 

 

- FW performed poorly on eastern front (russian pilot feared the 109, not the 190) ... Great when radar guided high speed interception on the western front.

 

It did not; when JG 51 and 54 were over Kursk their claims / Soviet losses on the northern edge of the salient were very high. JG 54 continued to work very well (often the only JG in the area) and even with over-claiming the losses suffered by Soviet units opposing them seems to have been pretty high.

 

However, you are correct that by late '44 many of the 190s on the Eastern Front were primarily ground-attack aircraft.

 

I'm teaching myself to fly the 190 and starting from the premise that I am the cause of most errors. It performs better at higher speed and needs some patience to fly (against AI, have not tried online) but I wonder if some of the Soviet types might perform a little too well over 400 kph as they do not seem to have control issues.

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You don't have to be an aeronautic engineer to check data, and I guess here are plenty of engineers around

 

Anyone can check data. To quote one of my favourite TBBT lines: "Monkeys went to space." The thing is you gotta check the context & circumstances in which this data was obtained. Aeronautic engineers are not necessarily aerodynamic experts (there are actually very, very few of them as it is a niche field of expertise inside a niche field of work). It's not an ability everyone has.

 

What baffles me (and irritates me) is that if we go back in time (where the first major revision to flight models was made for the FW190) just a few months ago, I distinctly remember reading people in this very thread saying "The FM is much, much better now, don't touch it! It's much, much more realistic now." And now, after a patch where some very minor tweaks were made (nothing I could notice to be honest), now some of these very same people who were enchanted with the previous FM are changing their song to "it's all wrong" again. 

 

It seems like it is a neverending story.

Edited by 71st_AH_Chuck
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Acceptable -  easy to check.  Get DCS D-9 and try how Fw 190 should handle at high speeds. These is acceptable.

 

There were 2 main changes in Fw 190 A-3 recenty:

 

- slighty improved climb rate -  still is off casue BOS A-3 got the same results like RL data for  ISA conditions ( +15 deg) - so still no benefis from cold air comparing to all other fighters in BOS

 

- even more nasty stall charactersitic from 1.08 -  dont know why it was changes casue before A-3 got also nasty stall but now they ovedone it  (  opposite what they do with Lagg- 3  -  some time before it have nasty spin characterisic and take some time to recover -   now is really easy)

 

 

What they dont change:

 

- too fast frozen elevator in BOS  - which start from 600-650 kph IAS -  it should forozen before 750 IAS.   So in BOS A-3 is not manouvearable at high speed.  It was primary Boom and Zoom plane but in BOS is seriously restricted in fast diving characteristic.

 

- wrong settings of horizontal stabilizer 

 

Nobody want here uber Fw 190 but we want real life adventages of Fw 190 in BOS which actually are seriusly reduced.

 

Funny is that Russian planes have without any problem some " bonus" which they dont have historically -  and most dont see here any problem.  I mean here too high safe diving speeds,  very dobfull roll rates of La5 and Lagg3,  no seriously high stick forces at speed above 400 kph,  overpowered M-105 PF at high alts.

Edited by 303_Kwiatek
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Acceptable -  easy to check.  Get DCS D-9 and try how Fw 190 should handle at high speeds. These is acceptable.

 

There were 2 main changes in Fw 190 A-3 recenty:

 

- slighty improved climb rate -  still is off casue BOS A-3 got the same results like RL data for  ISA conditions ( +15 deg) - so still no benefis from cold air comparing to all other fighters in BOS

 

- even more nasty stall charactersitic from 1.08 -  dont know why it was changes casue before A-3 got also nasty stall but now they ovedone it  (  opposite what they do with Lagg- 3  -  some time before it have nasty spin characterisic and take some time to recover -   now is really easy)

 

 

What they dont change:

 

- too fast frozen elevator in BOS  - which start from 600-650 kph IAS -  it should forozen before 750 IAS.   So in BOS A-3 is not manouvearable at high speed.  It was primary Boom and Zoom plane but in BOS is seriously restricted in fast diving characteritic.

 

- wrong settings of horizontal stabilizer 

 

Nobody want here uber Fw 190 but we want real life adventages of Fw 190 in BOS which actually are seriusly reduced.

 

Funny is that Russian planes have without any problem some " bonus" which they dont have historically -  and most dont see here any problem.  I mean here too high safe diving speeds,  very dobfull roll rates of La5 and Lagg3,  no seriously high stick forces at speed above 400 kph,  overpowered M-105 PF at high alts.

That sums it up.

However i actually think the stallcharacteristics of the FW got better with last patch. Not worse.

Especially the too good high alt performance of the YAK is what bothers me bigtime.

I was in TS with my matey yesterday. He had a YAK at his 6 at 8.500m height. He climbet to 9500 or something meters and was cursing all the time how the YAK could remain on his six. Seriously the high alt performance of the YAK is just stupidly overdone.

And its not just my friend thats currsing. I had such encounters as well and the supposedly increasing superiority of the 109 compared to the YAK with rising altitude is just not there.

Edited by VSG1_Winger
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You mean 1.09 or 1.08?   Casue in 1.08 was overdone.

 

I forgot mention that Fw 190 was known from not trim change in wide speed range.  In BOS it is opposite -  i need in constantly retriming.  In all other planes 109 or Russian ones i just set one trim settings after take off and could fly with constant trim settings no problem. In Fw 190 it is opposite -  these plane in BOS need constantly retrim depend of speed.  In DCS D-9 there is exacly like was describe in raports -  in most case i fly with +2 deg horizontal stabilizer (  " 0 " position on trim gugage)  and it is enough for most speed range.

Edited by 303_Kwiatek
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So ... what's the verdict on the FW 190 now???

 

Guilty! For being the most overestimeted and misinterpreted aircraft by flight simmers since....ever. 

:biggrin:

 

I think flight sims in general misinterpreted the FW-190 for years through legend

and romance of the plane that its actual capabilities.

 

The Bf-109 was the Luftwaffe's true fighter  of the war.

 

By mid war to the end the Allies caught up and surpassed the FW-190 capabilities.

I am pretty sure the Germans figured it out when they converted and used the FW-190

to its full potential as a bomber interceptor and a ground attack aircraft with its superb

gun platform and payload capabilities.

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I think flight sims in general misinterpreted the FW-190 for years through legend

and romance of the plane that its actual capabilities.

 

The Bf-109 was the Luftwaffe's true fighter  of the war.

 

By mid war to the end the Allies caught up and surpassed the FW-190 capabilities.

I am pretty sure the Germans figured it out when they converted and used the FW-190

to its full potential as a bomber interceptor and a ground attack aircraft with its superb

gun platform and payload capabilities.

 

It was, but not really by choice; various attempts to replace it with other designs but the economics never worked out (and the defence industry was something of a dog's breakfast).

 

The 190 was pretty good at most things but to suggest it was an inferior 'fighter' (whatever that really means) to the 109 is a bit steep. I would suggest it is a serious candidate for best overall fighter of the war.

 

None of this, of course, has any bearing on the FM debate :)

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I don't really think this is "just another FM debate". There is clearly a sizeable discrepancy between the data and reports of pilots (see evidence on previous pages) and what we have in-game. Just because the 190 "flies OK" doesn't mean it's correct. This is a simulator and as such should strive for accuracy. 
Just because the planes used by the Luftwaffe during this period were superior to their VVS counterparts does not mean that they should suffer from sub-par performance under the excuse "well, they're superior anyway, they don't need to be more powerful".

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I don't really think this is "just another FM debate".

None of the participants of a FM debate think it's "just another FM debate", they all think the debate they're involved in is an important one... other then that FM debates will just stop shortly.

... but they're all neverending, so they're all not "just another FM debate" in the participant minds....  ;)

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It is... like any other FM/DM discussion, and this since the early days of flight sims.

 

.. and for some reason... in a majority of the cases the topic of "discussion" is usually a 190 or a 109. Can that many developers just be totally wrong in their assessments of these aircraft .... or is it possible that some folks' expectations are just overblown.

 

My tactic has always been to take a sim on it's own merits and learn to fly it within the confines of the physics of that universe.

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There is debate and there are changes. So the debates are not for nothing obviously. Lets go on!!! :)

 

 

.. and for some reason... in a majority of the cases the topic of "discussion" is usually a 190 or a 109. Can that many developers just be totally wrong in their assessments of these aircraft .... or is it possible that some folks' expectations are just overblown.

 

 

Well, as Winger pointed out, there are changes in FM and DM (not only for German planes...).

 

So the answer to you question: 'Can that many developers just be totally wrong in their assessments of these aircraft '  is a clear yes, isn't it.

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I doubt the 190 will ever be considered accurate by its users until its in-game performance is a good 15% better than real life.

 

Oooh, schnapp!

Indeed, just like the yak is atm, right?  :lol:

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Well, as Winger pointed out, there are changes in FM and DM (not only for German planes...).

 

So the answer to you question: 'Can that many developers just be totally wrong in their assessments of these aircraft '  is a clear yes, isn't it.

 

Well... I don't know how "clear" it is... That is debatable. 

 

It seems to me that over the years I have seen several posters bring up all kinds of charts and anecdotes to align with their often conflicting opinions. From my experience in IL2 I have come to the conclusion that at times when it appears that something is wrong with a given FM .. it is often a matter of adapting to whatever change was made with one's flying style or trim.. etc.. There will always be someone who will be dissatisfied with something especially where the two premier German fighters are concerned.. for some reason that I cannot explain.. Perhaps it is the perceived notion that they were "superior" aircraft to everything else... the bottom line is that the developers cannot alter the FM every time someone comes up with a "This is wrong!" ... If they did that they would be spending most of their time rewriting FM code to please everyone..

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I will only fly 190 in the next week. Lets see what happens.

Giving her some more hours as well. Hope i dont end up as frustrated as i did the last time i spent time "in her" - hehe funny:) Normally I never end up frustrated when i am "in her":P Sorry, fun aside. At least yesterday I already had a good time. But that was on normal dogfighting server. LEts see how she performs in Expert settings.

Edited by VSG1_Winger
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The FM of the P-51 in IL2 was not right until 4.11 I think it was? However all that time there were guys who adapted to the FM as it was and were very successful at using the AC.. this is the same tact that needs to be taken in any sim IMO. I remember when the P-47 first came out in IL2.. the He-111 had a better roll rate.. and a Zero could catch it in a dive.. but there were guys who became quite proficient at using it as it was ...  This is no exception.. Although in this case I do not know enough about the 190's historic performance to say it is right or wrong.. but I can say it is what it is...  and that needs to be the primary takeaway.. for now at least.

 

If you (a generic "you") do have issues with the FM then present your case with proof and the devs have already proven that they are willing to make changes if the necessity for those changes can be documented... There are several multipage threads with charts, graphs, anecdotes and stuff in Russin, German and English out the wazoo ....

 

We are going to let this thread go on for a spell.. as long as it doesn't go south.. but at some point it will be locked and allowed to fade away.. with all the other 190 threads after each patch...

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The FM of the P-51 in IL2 was not right until 4.11 I think it was? However all that time there were guys who adapted to the FM as it was and were very successful at using the AC.. this is the same tact that needs to be taken in any sim IMO. I remember when the P-47 first came out in IL2.. the He-111 had a better roll rate.. and a Zero could catch it in a dive.. but there were guys who became quite proficient at using it as it was ...  This is no exception.. Although in this case I do not know enough about the 190's historic performance to say it is right or wrong.. but I can say it is what it is...  and that needs to be the primary takeaway.. for now at least.

 

If you (a generic "you") do have issues with the FM then present your case with proof and the devs have already proven that they are willing to make changes if the necessity for those changes can be documented... There are several multipage threads with charts, graphs, anecdotes and stuff in Russin, German and English out the wazoo ....

 

We are going to let this thread go on for a spell.. as long as it doesn't go south.. but at some point it will be locked and allowed to fade away.. with all the other 190 threads after each patch...

 

I don't get what you want to say Bearcat. Accept the things as they are because one cannot change it? It's my way or the highway?

 

People do present "proofs" for there claims, don't they? But quite often (not always) such claims get misleaded without any data by others (keyword luftwhiners).

 

The examples you made about the old IL-2, why they changed over time? Because devs voluntarily revised FMs? I don't think so. 

 

I think those people are exactly the ones who make the difference (not only in SIMs), because they struggle with passion for they perception of what is right and what is wrong.

 

And, as fast as this thread get closed the next FW190 thread will appear I bet, because you cannot change people minds with closing a thread.

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True.  And for the record, I've never claimed to be any good.  I get shot down all the time.

 

Maybe if you listed your top ten 190 pilots we could try and organize some training for the rest of us

Well.. Im no ace either.. My handle has more to do with my good looks than my flying skills! ;)

 

But I digress, I have shot down most Fw190 with ease, I have also come across few Fw190s that gave me a good fight.. But there was this one guy, he was definitely better than me! He made that Fw190 do things I could not belive it could do, an this was down low in a TnB style fight.. I forget this name? But Ill keep an eye out for him, maybe he can teach a class or something.

That's not particularily important in this discussion.

Disagree 100%

 

I don't think most guys want the 190 to be corrected due to being too bad to perform good with it (or let's say reasonably sucessfull) but because they feel/know sth is plenly wrong with it's representation.

Problem is, most can not admit they were bested, and thus incorrectly conclude their must be something wrong with the FM. The fact that some can and some can not tells me the plane is capable, that and no one has provided anything that would be considered as proof that there is a bug in the FM IMHO

It is... like any other FM/DM discussion, and this since the early days of flight sims.

+1

None of the participants of a FM debate think it's "just another FM debate", they all think the debate they're involved in is an important one... other then that FM debates will just stop shortly.

... but they're all neverending, so they're all not "just another FM debate" in the participant minds....  ;)

+2

or is it possible that some folks' expectations are just overblown.

We have a winner! ;)
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But I digress, I have shot down most Fw190 with ease, I have also come across few Fw190s that gave me a good fight.. But there was this one guy, he was definitely better than me! He made that Fw190 do things I could not belive it could do, an this was down low in a TnB style fight.. I forget this name? But Ill keep an eye out for him, maybe he can teach a class or something.

As I said it's nto important who performs what and how with which machine in combat against sby else, tested performance is.

Problem is, most can not admit they were bested, and thus incorrectly conclude their must be something wrong with the FM. The fact that some can and some can not tells me the plane is capable, that and no one has provided anything that would be considered as proof

Which doesn't mean you can disproof they're claims. Usually if sby claims sth and has a backup it's not enought to call him wrong but to provide contra-backup and so forth. Calling everybody explaining his mistrust against the credibility of  ingame's FM's based on data "Luftwhiner" is not the way to get on with him (or anybody else). 

 

Another thing people need to consider why german planes usually get much attention is because there are easy acessible data, various books and numberous pilot interviews all across the net. Same for US aircrafts, which usually were equally well documented. Japanese or Russian docs on the other hand are way more difficult to acess and translate for us westerners so the overall ammount of discussions based on sufisticated documentation is quite low. It takes way more effort to find good data on the lagg-3 than any Bf-109, which is why more people will step up for those planes.

Disagree 100%

It's ok, the forum rules allow you to disagree with me and I have no issue with that.

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka
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As I said it's nto important who performs what and how with which machine in combat against sby else, tested performance is.

As I said disagree 100%

 

Which doesn't mean you can disproof they're claims.

Nor can you prove them

 

Usually if sby claims sth and has a backup it's not enought to call him wrong but to provide contra-backup and so forth.

It is the backup part that is missing from most if not all claims of FM errors

 

Calling everybody explaining his mistrust against the credibility of  ingame's FM's based on data "Luftwhiner" is not the way to get on with him (or anybody else).

Agreed, but ignoring the rule does not disprove the rule either.

 

Another thing people need to consider why german planes usually get much attention is because there are easy acessible data, various books and numberous pilot interviews all across the net. Same for US aircrafts, which usually were equally well documented. Japanese or Russian docs on the other hand are way more difficult to acess and translate for us westerners so the overall ammount of discussions based on sufisticated documentation is quite low.

That is a big part of it

 

It takes way more effort to find good data on the lagg-3 than any Bf-109, which is why more people will step up for those planes.

It's ok, the forum rules allow you to disagree with me and I have no issue with that.

Good, cuz on most of it I do! ;)
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I am not russian and like more to play german plane .... On public server I mainly play russian because of balance of team (and sad of it sometime .... Because we are few doing it )

 

Neither am I Russian, nor anyone in our squad.  We'd love the chance to fly other aircraft (read 'dark side' :), but never can because of the imbalance here in BoS and at RoF.  It is absolutely ridiculous.

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One of the reasons I joined Syndicate was because it was a squadron that flew both sides. I never understand people who only use half their sim! (Note: I feel the same way about the Designated hitter rule in baseball) But because of the imbalance that developed over time in RoF and has existed since day one in BoS we never (or nearly never) get to fly for the German side. I sometimes wish our server could somehow limit German numbers to allow Syndicate members a chance to fly both sides but I am guessing that will never happen.

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