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DM in 1.009 appreciation thread


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planes are far too durable now

 

shooting people just makes them leak things, i've yet to see an engine broken until you've hit them 20 times

 

You know... Not every minengeschoss successfully detonated... Not every round fragmented... It is more realistic for a plane to be taking plenty of hits because more rounds will pass through a wing full of spars than they will hit something critical every time.

 

Just like it is with the well modeled rounds in CloD, learn to place shots correctly and there will be no problems with shooting things down. Ask Mr. X or Karaya and his mates.

Edited by 4./JG26_FalkeEins
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planes are far too durable now

 

shooting people just makes them leak things, i've yet to see an engine broken until you've hit them 20 times

The key is scoring accurate hits.

Spray and pray doesnt help anymore. Its really improved and you still can kill a fighter with one burst of combined fire. If you hit the right spot its just a matter of time. Over all IMO feels much more realistic and especially the bombers really needed the beefup since they were practically always dead in the first attack. Now they are able to withstand long enough for the fightercover to actually intervene. Before i coudnt do peep against an attacking fighter since my bombermates were already burning with the first pass.

Edited by VSG1_Winger
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The key is scoring accurate hits.

Spray and pray doesnt help anymore. Its really improved and you still can kill a fighter with one burst of combined fire. If you hit the right spot its just a matter of time. Over all IMO feels much more realistic and especially the bombers really needed the beefup since they were practically always dead in the first attack. Now they are able to withstand long enough for the fightercover to actually intervene. Before i coudnt do peep against an attacking fighter since my bombermates were already burning with the first pass.

 

Hey Winger.

 

Good to see you come out in support of the DM changes :happy: I had gotten the impression, that you were in the "all VVS fighters are now tanks"-crowd. I completely agree with your statement here BTW.

 

I wonder: Would you agree with me, that by losing the paper wings on especially the 109s, the LW pilots actually got most out of the changes? (Not that it's about that, realism über alles, but still...)

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Hey Winger.

 

Good to see you come out in support of the DM changes :happy: I had gotten the impression, that you were in the "all VVS fighters are now tanks"-crowd. I completely agree with your statement here BTW.

 

I wonder: Would you agree with me, that by losing the paper wings on especially the 109s, the LW pilots actually got most out of the changes? (Not that it's about that, realism über alles, but still...)

 

I personally didnt mind the 109 wings come off easy. After all the plane was known to be not very bulletproof back then. If i remember right mostly due to the water coolant getting hit really easily. In case of BOS it was due to the paperwings. Also i felt the "other" planes fell too quick too. Not just the 109.

But if you want to look at it like that, i agree with you. The 109 now forgives the mistake of being in the sights of someone more easy:) And thus the german 109 pilots got something out of it. I dont fly russian planes very much so i would want to avoid to say that the changes affect the durability fo th 109 MORE than other planes.

 

@Dreizehn: Aye. Good aiming became more valuable. Thus the sim gets more realistic over all. Look at the "Big" german aces like Marseille or Hartmann. They were extremely good shots and not the last due to that became the highest scoring aces in WWII.

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LW pilots actually got most out of the changes?

 

Quite the opposite, I think.

 

Let's take the Yak and 109 as examples. In a Yak you want to stick to manoeuvring, because that's what you're relatively best at. The whole point of manoeuvring is to maximise your firing window. If a Yak is following a 109, which it can, and both are at roughly equal speeds, dogfighting, the difference between 3 and 10 rounds required to take down the enemy plane isn't that large. Why? Because within seconds the Yak may have another firing window. Considering the fact that dogfighting usually involves planes moving at similar relative speeds to each other, firing windows are naturally longer. Therefore Yak's will be quite happy with the update, since long firing windows somewhat negate the increased structural strength of fighters.

 

On the other hand. say you're in the 109 and you want to use it properly, you'll want to stick to high-speed sweeping attacks and use your climb-rate to escape -- you basically boom and zoom. It's a very safe method, but one that comes with potentially very short firing windows. When you're diving down on someone at 600km/h the amount of time you have to press the trigger is very small. In situations like this, the difference between 3 and 10 cannon shells required to eliminate the target is immense. It's the difference between one attack and three attacks. Whereas before 1.009 one approach could remove a vertical stabliser and disable the enemy plane, it now takes three approaches to do the same thing, which just isn't always feasible. 

 

The DM changes are what the are, and despite me not thinking that they're very plausible, considering gun camera footage, I can live with them.

But they definitely favour maneouverable planes and with longer firing windows, i.e. most VVS planes.

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The more I'm flying the more I see people with 109s taking additional 15 or 20 mm gondolas, it appears some try to compensate new DM's with greater firepower. 

 

They'll soon learn better aiming and go back to the regular armament. Personally I always choose performance over firepower in a fighter. Today flew a 109 online for one session I had no trouble what so ever gunning down VVS fighters with just the regular armament. 

 

I really, really don't see the issue with the DM changes. It has made fights so much more exciting, because it's no longer just a frantic scramble to draw first blood.

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They'll soon learn better aiming and go back to the regular armament. Personally I always choose performance over firepower in a fighter. Today flew a 109 online for one session I had no trouble what so ever gunning down VVS fighters with just the regular armament. 

Well, I saw something opposite. At least on Fresh Meat, 3-4 guys following someone and all shooting, some hitting, guy goes down ... and repeat. Rarely there was sort of coordinated action, more often there was just chase of chase.  

 

 

 

I really, really don't see the issue with the DM changes. It has made fights so much more exciting, because it's no longer just a frantic scramble to draw first blood.

I'm flying both sides and really dont see anything positive about the increased toughness of the fighters, while bombers definitely suffered the fighters needed mainly improvements to the engine. But fighters ... no, from my perspective there was no need for that. I preferred previous DM's, in fact that the things were so delicate sometimes, was the reason I came here from Wt.

Edited by =LD=Hiromachi
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I preferred previous DM's, in fact that the things were so delicate sometimes,

 

Yeah! I agree that the increased thoughness was much needed for the bombers, but not so much for the fighters. In previous patches I could down ivans in single passes, now I need multiple ones, and since I mostly fly the 190 that means I'm ****ed, because the longer the engagement, the better for the yaks. In a nutshell, I got the worse of the patch.... 190 stalling more easily, needing more than a single pass to shoot down fighters and so on...

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From my point of view both sides can suffer, I flew La-5 and scored a good hits on 109 F-4, yet guy was still very much in combat and started his vertical dance. If only there would be no wingman with me its possible that F-4 would have a firing solution on me. If with La-5 with double Shvaks I benefit not much than something is not correct.

 

Maybe to get into details, as common sense failed. 

German research shown that on average 4-5 twenty millimeter hits were needed to shoot down a Spitfire.

In early fighting over France on May 26, 1940, Alan Deere of 54 Squadron who had already claimed a number of German aircraft and was later to become a leading Ace, had his Spitfire's right wing hit by cannon shell from a 109. With a big hole in the wing Deere's Spitfire instantly flipped over temporarily out of control and probably thereby avoided additional attacks by his assailant. His Spitfire proved difficult to fly precluding further combat. Landing was effected with a flat tire caused by the cannon hit.

Days later Deere was to crash land his Spitfire again, with coolant tank punctured by 7.92 mm rounds.

 

On September 7, 1940 legless ace Squadron Leader Douglas Bader's Hurricane was hit in a quick pass by a 109. A cannon shell shredded his left aileron and smaller bullets hit his wing and cockpit. Bullets shattered  instruments on the control panel and also hit the fuel tank. His aircraft stayed with the squadron but required significant repairs. Similar accident occurred to other pilot. The diary of Pilot Officer D. H. Wissler who flew a Hurricane with 17 Squadron recorded : "Suddenly there was a blinding flash and I felt a hell of a blow on my left arm, and the blood was running down. I went into a hell of a dive and came back to Debden. A cannon shell had hit my wing and a bit of it had hit me just above the elbow and behind. The shell had blown away most of my port flaps. So I tried to land without flaps and I could not stop and crashed into a pile of stones just off the field (...)"

 

An interesting source can be  a report of the United States Strategic Bombing Survey. As expected the effect of a 7.92 mm round (MG 15, MG 17, etc.) was rated as negligible. The larger 13 and 15 mm rounds were deemed to have value principally as incendiaries. Twenty millimeter rounds were rated at 6 % (roughly equivalent to other studies finding an average of 20 or so hits necessary to bring down a heavy bomber). Thus a German estimation of 4-5 hits seemed to be correct to bring down a fighter. 

 

 

But main case is ability to damage enemy effectively enough to make him out of combat, not necessarily shooting down. If you hit enemy and yet he keeps fighting almost unaffected than I find it not really correct. 

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Jeeez guys I dont know if you all come from warthunder or something.

Bos just became a whole lot more realistic Without these insta fire/smoke/explosions!

 

Its still very easy to shoot down planes WHEN YOU HIT THEM!

Learn to aim like has been required in every other serious combat flightsim out there!

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My take on the old DM was not so much a problem with toughness of the planes in general as with small caliber MGs seeming to be over-effective compared to cannons. It seemed about right that usually 3-4 20mm hits would guarantee to down a fighter, the problem was that some small number of MG hits would do the same much too often.

 

I would have preferred reducing the effectiveness of MG fire a little and leaving cannons the same.

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The more I'm flying the more I see people with 109s taking additional 15 or 20 mm gondolas, it appears some try to compensate new DM's with greater firepower. 

Not a wise decision. The YAK-1 performance at altitudes above 5km is so close to even the standard F4 that those guys will be eaten alive if they encounter one of the wonderplanes co alt in a 1:1 situation.

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Not a wise decision. The YAK-1 performance at altitudes above 5km is so close to even the standard F4 that those guys will be eaten alive if they encounter one of the wonderplanes co alt in a 1:1 situation.

They are eaten alive no matter what altitude, unless they maintain strict discipline and engage only with altitude advantage its really hard. 

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I played last night and shot down like 5 people in a row with the yak 1... Most of them one time bursts.... I also put out a fire on my wing by diving to 600kph an sidestepping the fire into the airflow. I then continued to fight

 

DM definitely better

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I played last night and shot down like 5 people in a row with the yak 1... Most of them one time bursts.... I also put out a fire on my wing by diving to 600kph an sidestepping the fire into the airflow. I then continued to fight

 

DM definitely better

You just proved its not... being on fire and fighting again is not realistic hence of the structural damage you reccieve due to internal thermal damage. Thats the sort of "War Thunder" thing people reffer to.

 

Havent played for long after the update due to low player counts at EU peak times and lag, but I'll probably investigate in this further.

 

In my opinion no fighter needed structural strenghening. VVS fighters always have felt tougher to me (especially the Yak) which was fine considering their more durable construction.

 

As Hiro said dowing a plane does not mean having decimate it to it's bare pieces but to knock it out of combat. By that I mean applying structual or crucial system damage preventing your enemy of continuing to carry the fight on.

 

On most occasions a few 20 mm hits should accomplish just that.

Air combat wasnt primarily about hunting but surviving.

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka
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For us ground pounders this is a clear improvement.

 

Pilot level 8-10 ground attack missions in campaign were hopeless because flak got you every time. Seem to have a chance of surviving in my IL2/PE2 now (or I suddenly became much better at dodging flak).

 

In MP I still havent tried since latest patch but I imagine the same would apply there as 1/2 missions where I made it to attack the enemy airfield, it would be flak that shot me down, not other players. So I might try MP again!

 

H

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So did a little flying since the update, and my impression so far it got even better then before. With 190 (2 cannons) i crippled one Yak with one burst, shot down an La5 in 2 attack runs (first one high deflection shooting, no idea about how many hits, La5 was smoking after, second attack run high head on pass, La5 was dead immediately). After that i caught another Yak while climbing, one short burst on the wing, and it broke off. Seems all very plausible for me. Didn't get hit, so no idea of 190 DM.

 

Second flight i took 109, got hit from a Yak in the wing, i guess one 20mm round. Big hole there, but i managed to escape (wouldn't be able to dogfight properly though, due to weird handling) Seems also plausible.

 

Third flight with IL2 together with a friend, we got attacked by a 109, he got hit in his engine, and it began to smoke [109 got shot down by covering Lagg after his first attack run]. However he flew on for another 20 minutes, completing mission task, and getting back to a nearby airfield, before the engine died. It lost power more and more with some time. This also seems very plausible for me.

 

In conclusion for what i have seen so far, the DM, which was even before the best one i have seen so far in a flight Sim, got even better. 100% plausible. My opinion is however due to possible alteration, due to very small testing time. I'll do another post after ~10 more hours with different planes. 

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The more I test out the improved DM, the more I'm convinced, that the DM is pretty much 'right' now. This is as good as it has to be, no major revisions needed.

 

Right now we have the exact right balance between feeling vulnerable and the challenge of actually having to deliver 1-2 solid bursts to be sure of a kill. Bombers feel tough but not invincible, while in a radial engined fighter you actually feel a bit protected sitting behind that engine block.

 

When it comes to the damage itself it's just so varied and interesting with a real sense that it's dynamic with damaged wings tearing off under the right kind of stress and damaged engines losing power at different rates (you really can't be sure if you have just a couple minutes of power left or whether the engine will just slowly lose power and be able to take you home.

 

Small additions will of course be welcome, and the graphics of certain aspects of the DM could still be better, but overall I think BoS now has a DM that matches the rest of the sim very well.

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The more I test out the improved DM, the more I'm convinced, that the DM is pretty much 'right' now. This is as good as it has to be, no major revisions needed.

 

Right now we have the exact right balance between feeling vulnerable and the challenge of actually having to deliver 1-2 solid bursts to be sure of a kill. Bombers feel tough but not invincible, while in a radial engined fighter you actually feel a bit protected sitting behind that engine block.

 

When it comes to the damage itself it's just so varied and interesting with a real sense that it's dynamic with damaged wings tearing off under the right kind of stress and damaged engines losing power at different rates (you really can't be sure if you have just a couple minutes of power left or whether the engine will just slowly lose power and be able to take you home.

 

Small additions will of course be welcome, and the graphics of certain aspects of the DM could still be better, but overall I think BoS now has a DM that matches the rest of the sim very well.

Agree. But some bending would be nice. I know its enginelimtation. But wouldnt that be awesome if a damaged wing wouldnt just rip off but just bend due to the decrease of structural integrity?

Edited by VSG1_Winger
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The wings bend. And how they bend even has to do with the material they are made of.

 

just sayin.

Look closer. They dont bend. They break at certain predefined spots but sometimes not immediately come off. This kinda looks like they bend.

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I like the new DM. Aircraft aren't bullet sponges nor are they overly flimsy. If you're having troubles with scoring kills online, drop to offline to see if it may be connectivity issues rather than the DM! :salute:

 

I've noticed my time in RoF in the Spads and SE5a have made my BnZ a little better...not having so much trouble getting good hits in the first pass now! :)

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I like the new DM, except for the 111 tail wheel is broken.  I imagine they'll fix it soon, but right now it always falls off, even at parking during engine startup.

Right. But it doenst seem to bother:) You can still take off fine.

Edited by VSG1_Winger
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