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The P40 thread

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From the official RAF web site

 

The Hurricane was a robust aircraft and a stable gun platform, well able to absorb a huge amount of battle damage that would have downed the Spitfire or its German adversary the Me109. It was designed by Sir Sydney Camm and was the latest in the long line of Hawker aircraft all characterised by their rugged, workmanlike construction. It outnumbered the Spitfire roughly two to one during the Battle and is credited with shooting down 656 enemy fighters and bombers against 529 for Spitfires.

 

Only two to one?

 

Ok, my bad, I thought it was much higher than that..

 

But my basic memory of it still holds, that being there were more of them, and that they shot down more 'FIGHTERS' (656) than the Spitfires (529)..

 

Which is pretty impressive for a so called OBSOLETE plane when you consider the fact (as you pointed out) their main mission was to attack the bombers..

 

In summary, I was watching some BoB anniversary thing, and, someone pointed out how ironic it was that the Spitfire gets all the attention and glory with little to no mention of the Hurrie, even though the Hurrie out numbered the Spitfires and shot down more enemy planes than the Spitifre.

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In summary, I was watching some BoB anniversary thing, and, someone pointed out how ironic it was that the Spitfire gets all the attention and glory with little to no mention of the Hurrie, even though the Hurrie out numbered the Spitfires and shot down more enemy planes than the Spitifre.

Same like P47 <--> P51

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Same? Disagree 100%

 

why do you disagree? P47 outnumbered P51 and shot down more German planes, yet "P51 get's all the glory". Absolutely the same like Hurri<-->Spit

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why do you disagree? P47 outnumbered P51 and shot down more German planes, yet "P51 get's all the glory". Absolutely the same like Hurri<-->Spit

 

Sorry, think you guys got lost...

 

b367d290dc07d93270501c8632eda492.jpg

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It really does seem like people wanna talk about just about anything besides the P-40 in this thread... :unsure:

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Russian pilots "anecdote".

 

 

 

In January some 198 aircraft sorties were flown (334 flying hours) and 11 aerial engagements were conducted, in which 5 Bf-109s, 1 Ju-88, and 1 He-111 were shot down [6]. These statistics reveal a surprising fact - it turns out that the Tomahawk was fully capable of successful air combat with a Bf-109. The reports of pilots about the circumstances of the engagements confirm this fact. 

On 18 January 1942, Lieutenants S. V. Levin and I. P. Levsha (in pair) fought an engagement with 7 Bf-109s and shot down two of them without loss. 

On 22 January a flight of three aircraft led by Lieutenant E. E. Lozov engaged 13 enemy aircraft and shot down two Bf-109Es, again without loss. 

Altogether in January two Tomahawks were lost-one shot down by German antiaircraft artillery and only one by Messerschmitts.

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Yep...

 

Curtiss_P-40_Warhawk.jpg

 

The plane is just magnificent to look at.  There are certain planes through history that just look right to me.  The F4 Phantom is another good example.  Both wear the Tiger-maw rather well too. 


Nice video with three together.

 

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guys, that interesting for me - have any mentions of removal of MGs in english sources?

i mean exactly field modifications.......


from russian side, i know only words of Golodnikov, about modernisation of Tomahawks (no wing MGs) and Kittyhawks IA (4xMG), which looks at least very reasonable.



PS love almost any Curtiss planes, btw.;) :biggrin: and i prefer to see in BOM exactly Tomahawk, but Kitty is nice too.

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why do you disagree? P47 outnumbered P51 and shot down more German planes, yet "P51 get's all the glory". Absolutely the same like Hurri<-->Spit

 

Absolutely the same?

 

Hardly, as you 'should' know, the P-47 was in production and in service before the P-51, where as during the BoB both the Hurri and Spitfire we in service at the same time.

 

Hope that helps

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does anyone know if russians increased the supercharger boost like some of the american/british squadrons did?

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oh, i remembered that P-40D are almost identical with P-40E, roughly, except of armament (4 and 6 MGs)............

 

 

and i sure at 99 percents that in USSR, at least, during end of 1941 - first half of 1943, not was field mods like 60/72 Hg. according to main sources (great article by Romanenko, for example), during battle of kuban pilots clearly understood that P-40 was in fact "inadequate" for fights with fighters (althought, pilots used WEP very often and very long time)................. so > only PVO etc, and maybe only there.......

 

plus these logical questions of supply, maintenance etc etc etc......

 

 

but 1780 bhp @ 20 minutes - this is really TRUE? in WARM place like africa? ie cooling system was improved, or no, like and engine?

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one of the most beautilful planes ever built

Edited by indiaciki

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oh, i remembered that P-40D are almost identical with P-40E, roughly, except of armament (4 and 6 MGs)............  and i sure at 99 percents that in USSR, at least, during end of 1941 - first half of 1943, not was field mods like 60/72 Hg. according to main sources (great article by Romanenko, for example), during battle of kuban pilots clearly understood that P-40 was in fact "inadequate" for fights with fighters (althought, pilots used WEP very often and very long time)................. so > only PVO etc, and maybe only there....... plus these logical questions of supply, maintenance etc etc etc......  but 1780 bhp @ 20 minutes - this is really TRUE? in WARM place like africa? ie cooling system was improved, or no, like and engine?

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14556-developer-diary-part-88-discussion/?p=233384

 

Perhaps this discussion?

 

H

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1946+editing, found on SAS1946.com a few years back. author not known but avid pilot.

adjustingguns.jpg

 

my youtube channel art... selfmade skin, dont have the full screen atm

paint%2Bme%2Ba%2BWarhawk.jpg

Edited by Yakdriver
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1946+editing, found on SAS1946.com a few years back. author not known but avid pilot.

adjustingguns.jpg

 

my youtube channel art... selfmade skin, dont have the full screen atm

paint%2Bme%2Ba%2BWarhawk.jpg

Nice. Very Bruce from Nemo!

 

Bruce_finding_nemo.jpg

Edited by heinkill

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Yep...

 

Curtiss_P-40_Warhawk.jpg

 

The plane is just magnificent to look at.  There are certain planes through history that just look right to me.  The F4 Phantom is another good example.  Both wear the Tiger-maw rather well too. 

Nice video with three together.

 

Not sure about looking right but both look (and fly) like war hammers. (Or perhaps Tomahawks -see what I did there?)  Both will bludgeon you quite effectively when handled right. Both will be found wanting in a close quarters knife fight. FTR, I like war hammers.

Edited by HerrMurf
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4aTdJS.jpg

 

The default skins for the Hawk 81 in IL2/46 were done by BlitzPig_Hammered.  He also did the defaults for the Tempest.

 

This is one he did for me...

 

Also the default US Army skin, taken from a real aircraft based at Selfrige Field in Michigan was chosen because it bore my personal number...

 

3V61jA.jpg

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Hammered... rings a bell.
i remember a dude doing 190 skins i liked a lot with that name. or was it "hammerd" without the "e"?
dunno.

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Claims, shmaims.

 

Sexy is as as sexy does. Luftwaffe pilots will bail out in embarrassment, die with envy, allow themselves to get shot down just so they can see it up close in their mirrors.

 

BellShark.jpg

 

Best IL2 P40 campaign?

 

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads3&file=details&id=104

 

Checkertails over the Med.

 

 

And looking at the cockpit and 3D model in this just makes me thirst for the BoS P40 more...

 

H

 

Glad my campaign is still being played!

 

Can't wait for the P40 to arrive.

 

Hopefully one day I can re-make my historical campaigns on IL2: BoMBoS

 

 

Simon

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Absolutely the same?

 

Hardly, as you 'should' know, the P-47 was in production and in service before the P-51, where as during the BoB both the Hurri and Spitfire we in service at the same time.

 

Hope that helps

 

 

Well at this point I'm really lost ... cos, the Hurricane was also in production and in service BEFORE the Spitfire although like the P 47 and P 51 it's combat role coincided with that of the Spitfire; at least for the most part.  Hurricanes were in production through into 1944 as I recall.

 

So ....?????? 

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So ....?????? 

 

Point 1, last time I checked, the P-47 was in production and use prior to the P-51, and the P-47 was in production and use well past the end of the war, so one would expect the P-47 to have a higher kill count than the P-51.. Point 2, as for the P-51 getting all the glory, it had allot to do with it's range over the other allied fighters IMHO. Thus being able to take the fight to the enemy where others could not, one would expect it to get the glory. And that is with regards to the war overall..

 

My original statement was with regards to 'one battle' of 'the war', ie BoB

 

Both the Hurrie and Spit were in production during BoB, the Hurrie out numbered the Spit by 2 to 1, The Hurrie shot down more German figthers than the Spit..

 

NOTE BAD FOR AN OBSOLETE FIGHTER!

 

Yet the Spit is remembered as the plane that saved England (read gets all the glory)

 

Just always found that odd, your mileage may vary.

 

Hope that helps

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"Two myths about the P-40 were that it was slow and not maneuverable. Compared to later American and German aircraft with 400+ mph top speeds, a mere 345 mph at 15,000 feet (the top speed of the P-40C) doesn't seem that impressive. But remember, in 1940-41 the Warhawk's top speed essentially matched that of the Spitfire 1A (346 mph at 15,000 feet) and Bf-109E (348 mph at 14,560 feet), and surpassed the A6M-21 Zero (331 mph at 14,930 feet) and Hawker Hurricane II (327 mph at 18,000 feet)."

 

"In Italy the 325 Fighter Group, commonly know as "The Checker-Tailed Clan" amassed one of the best kill to loss ratios of any fighter group in the European Theater. In 1943 the 325th won two major engagements. On July 1, 22 checker-tailed P-40s were making a fighter sweep over southern Italy when they were jumped by 40 Bf-109s. After an intense air battle, the result was half of the German aircraft shot down for the loss of a single P-40. There was a similar situation on the 30th of July, again over Italy, when 35 Bf-109s ambushed 20 P-40s. On this occasion, 21 German fighters were shot down, again for the loss of a single P-40. Because the pilots of the 325th were trained to maximize the P-40's strengths and minimize its weaknesses, it became a lethal opponent for the German fighters. The final record of "The Checker-Tailed Clan's" P-40s was 135 Axis planes shot down (96 were Bf-109s), for only 17 P-40s lost in combat."

 

H

 

 

Although the Luftwaffe was certainly on the back foot in Italy in 1943, the destruction of more than 20 109s, in a single engagement with P40s, (for the loss of just one Allied fighter) sounds extraordinary to me- particularly given that the 109s appear to have engaged the P40s from an advantageous position.

 

Are these 'confirmed victories' or just 'claimed victories'?    

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Hammered... rings a bell.

i remember a dude doing 190 skins i liked a lot with that name. or was it "hammerd" without the "e"?

dunno.

 

You are correct Yakdriver, no e at the end.   And yes he did a lot of very nice skins for many of the aircraft in the sim. 

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I think the gearing is a bit of a moot point. At SL the boost on all single stage supercharged engines designed for even moderate altitude work was much greater than nominal parameters would allow. That is, because as altitude increases, air density goes down, and the supercharger will have a greater and greater difficulty in achieving the nominal boost pressure until, at some critical point, the boost pressure delivered drops below nominal. What controls the pressure that the sc puts out, so that it does not exceed nominal, even at Sea Level? And what happens if this is tampered with? Answer - it is the same as the "boost cutout" in the Spit mk1/Merlin engines of BoB.. You get an increased boost at altitudes where air density is high. In other words, at sea level. All that this takes is an ability to modify the bleed off valve (or block it off completely) so that it delivers the entirety of the boost generated by the supercharger at low altitudes. Result - drastically increased boost pressure. With a single stage supercharger designed for moderate altitude work, I am fairly confident that the Allison in the -40e would easily put out an additional 1/3 more pressure at sea level with the bleed off valve blocked up/modified.

Edited by Venturi

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Point 1, last time I checked, the P-47 was in production and use prior to the P-51, and the P-47 was in production and use well past the end of the war, so one would expect the P-47 to have a higher kill count than the P-51.. Point 2, as for the P-51 getting all the glory, it had allot to do with it's range over the other allied fighters IMHO. Thus being able to take the fight to the enemy where others could not, one would expect it to get the glory. And that is with regards to the war overall..

 

My original statement was with regards to 'one battle' of 'the war', ie BoB

 

Both the Hurrie and Spit were in production during BoB, the Hurrie out numbered the Spit by 2 to 1, The Hurrie shot down more German figthers than the Spit..

 

NOTE BAD FOR AN OBSOLETE FIGHTER!

 

Yet the Spit is remembered as the plane that saved England (read gets all the glory)

 

Just always found that odd, your mileage may vary.

 

Hope that helps

 

 

I don't know much about US fighters so I may well be wrong but I think the P51 was actually in production before the P 47.  Don't forget the Pony was actually intended for British consumption, in response to a British spec. issued in 1940.  It was powered by an Allison at that point of course so ok down low but NFG up high.

 

That said, I agree that at the time of BoB, the Hurricane greatly out numbered the Spitfire which was at that time just coming on stream from a production standpoint.  So with twice as many HH in action as opposed to SS it doesn't surprise me at all that Hurricanes achieved more victories, BUT, only a fool would suggest that the Hurricane was a better aircraft than the Spit. based on BoB victory stats.  It did very well in a defensive role during the Battle BUT, that doesn't mean it was a better machine - not that you're actually saying that.  But we have to be careful drawing conclusions from incomplete information.  The Hurricane was an adequate aircraft during the early part of the War (as was the P40) but the Spit was better.

Edited by Wulf
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I don't know much about US fighters so I may well be wrong but I think the P51 was actually in production before the P 47.  Don't forget the Pony was actually intended for British consumption, in response to a British spec. issued in 1940.  It was powered by an Allison at that point of course so ok down low but NFG up high.

The timing was close, but, was referring to when the USAF adopted the P-51 in place of other planes, post adaptation of the Merlin.

 

That said, I agree that at the time of BoB, the Hurricane greatly out numbered the Spitfire which was at that time just coming on stream from a production standpoint.  So with twice as many HH in action as opposed to SS it doesn't surprise me at all that Hurricanes achieved more victories,

Bingo, and since the USAF was using P-47s longer than P-51s it does not suprise me they had a higher kill count, time wise and number wise.

 

BUT, only a fool would suggest that the Hurricane was a better aircraft than the Spit. based on BoB victory stats.  It did very well in a defensive role during the Battle BUT, that doesn't mean it was a better machine - not that you're actually saying that.  But we have to be careful drawing conclusions from incomplete information.  The Hurricane was an adequate aircraft during the early part of the War (as was the P40) but the Spit was better.

Agreed

 

No one I know of is saying the Hurri was better than the Spit, I simply pointed out the Hurri shot down more German aircraft than the Spit during BoB, in response to someone calling the Hurrie a OBSOLETE aircraft.. My point being, that OBSOLET aircraft shot down alot of 109s, so, what does that say about the 109?

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that OBSOLET aircraft shot down alot of 109s, so, what does that say about the 109?

 

Absolutely nothing. Even Polish PZL fighters and Russian I15 shot down German aircraft. It is pretty much possible to shoot down any aircraft with any other aircraft (of course within a certain range). If you do stupid things as a pilot, even another aircraft which is a lot worse to your one can shoot you down. Wildcats have also been obsolete in 43, no match to the Zero or Hayabusa, yet the F4F got a lot of kills against them.

Same goes for Hayate and Hellcat. You just have to outnumber your enemy, and be maybe better pilots, then it's not to hard to shoot him down in huge numbers, even if he has a lot better plane.

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Guys, would it kill you to stay on-topic for once and take the non-P-40 discussion to another thread?

Edited by LukeFF

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Absolutely nothing. Even Polish PZL fighters and Russian I15 shot down German aircraft. It is pretty much possible to shoot down any aircraft with any other aircraft (of course within a certain range).

Absolutely nothing?

 

The point your missing, or should I say avoiding? Is the Hurri shot down more German planes than the Spitfire during BoB, which says allot (good) about the Hurrie, a so called obsolute aircraft, and a says allot (bad) about the 109..

 

Hope that helps

 

PS in light of Lukes post, he is correct this is about the P-40, so if you have any more opinions you would like to share with me Celestiale, please feel free to PM me, oh, and on a side note, you might want to jump back over the the roll rate thread I started, in that if you will recall you suggested the roll rate data for the P-40 was.. How did you say it? Dubious? Well, as it turns out, you were wrong, that data was actually collected by the NACA using the methods described in the NACA No. 715 document that states rudder is not to be used during roll rate testing. here is a link just encase you had trouble locating the thread

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14475-comparison-fighter-roll-rates-10kft/?p=229727

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 and on a side note, you might want to jump back over the the roll rate thread I started, in that if you will recall you suggested the roll rate data for the P-40 was.. How did you say it? Dubious? Well, as it turns out, you were wrong, that data was actually collected by the NACA using the methods described in the NACA No. 715 document that states rudder is not to be used during roll rate testing. here is a link just encase you had trouble locating the thread

 

 

You mean the graph of the roll rate of the pre-war P40, which has nothing to do with the later E,F,N etc versions? Seems i was right calling it dubious, because it has nothing to do with the planes used in war/ in this future sim. The graph of the F version, which is beside the different engine mainly the same like the E version we will get in the game shows still a not to bad roll rate, but nowhere near fighters with real good rolling capabilities like the clipped wing spit or the 190. 

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P40s were used by the Flying Tiger mercenary squadron in China, I see this quote from wiki:

 

"When Japanese planes attacked, Chennault's doctrine called for pilots to take on enemy aircraft in teams from an altitude advantage, since their aircraft were not as maneuverable or as numerous as the Japanese fighters they would encounter. He prohibited his pilots from entering into a turning fight with the nimble Japanese fighters, telling them to execute a diving or slashing attack and to dive away to set up for another attack. This "dive-and-zoom" technique was contrary to what the men had learned in U.S. service as well as what the Royal Air Force (RAF) pilots in Burma had been taught; it had been used successfully, however, by Soviet units serving with the Chinese Air Force.[7]"

 

Bears out my conviction that correct tactics are a function of relative performance rather than absolute performance.

 

Similarly vs 109s in Russian or US cases mentioned above: I have no doubt that a formation of P40s with altitude advantage could swoop down and get kills against virtually any WW2 piston aircraft, since they at least had the firepower to finish a target quickly. If they just kept diving away there might not be any dogfight at all.

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how about the rule says that people continuing an OT discussion get permabanned for life and sent to siberia?

P-40.

not spit, not hurri, not thud, not stang.

how difficult is that!

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