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A question on comments by Loft

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Forced what? Forced buying the game, or forced anyone to expect to get the sim of their dreams?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Who had/did what?

Force those who bogut the game to grind in this subpar campaign. not everyone bought the game for the offline campaign, and you ruined the game for a lot of people, by locking basic loadouts and the skins.

Edited by Jaws2002

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So there is no chance of making the ssao user selectable?

 

Because this causes quite a performance impact and many do not like the way it looks.

 

Ditto for the reflections on the wing (screen space?). Disabling those two things saved a fair amount of God without much of a visual inpact.

 

It is not about having a pc that can't run the game on presets and trying to make it work. Custom graphics settings are a basic feature in virtually all of games. If I want to run at ultra but don't like the look of ssao I should be able to do it.

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It is not about having a pc that can't run the game on presets and trying to make it work. Custom graphics settings are a basic feature in virtually all of games. If I want to run at ultra but don't like the look of ssao I should be able to do it.

 

This ^

 

There are many reasons that so many of us PC users, choose to do all our gaming on the PC, rather than a console. Graphics adjustments are just one of them.

Imho, presets belong in consoles, not a PC game.

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Hey Potenz. I'm gonna simply quote Loft, if you don't mind:

1) There's a number of combinations of video settings that can cause serious performance issues, which always serves as a ground for very agressive feedback. We prevented the possibility of such combinations;

2) There's no one who knows our own technology better than us. And we are offering optimal variants. A PC that doesn't run the game on presets well won't perform better without the presets;

3) Comes from p.1 - we would need to find out all possible week points that could crash the game, cause memory to leak, etc. It would have taken very long to test the project, but as you know we didn't have much time.

Yeah, I think it'll be public in March. TBC.

 

Every other company out there had resources to allow custom graphics. This is not some major technical problem, It just requires a little time and a little investment. I don't see the lack of custom graphics, as understandable major problem for the developers. something they couldn't do, or couldn't afford.

    More like them being cheap with some of the most basic parts of the game.....A game sold at premium price.

Edited by Jaws2002
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So there is no chance of making the ssao user selectable?

 

Because this causes quite a performance impact and many do not like the way it looks.

 

+1.. SSAO is broken currently in the game and has been since day 1 of EA. Right now the devs are forcing everybody who wants to play at high / ultra settings to endure a badly implemented SSAO. 

 

Devs - it's baffling that we're still in this position but please consider adding even a tick box for SSAO on / off. This would cost you virtually no effort on your side and would help reduce the pain felt by a lot of people over the presets. 

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I think there's some rudeness in this thread masquerading as people (the usual people) speaking "honestly".

 

I know perfectly well what "the usual people" think, and I'm not interested in hearing them express themselves yet again.

 

I am, however, very interested to hear what Zak and Loft have to say, without people irately jabbing their virtual fingers into the Devs' chests. This is because what the devs say has a bearing on my in-game experience, unlike most of the rest of the contributions on this forum.

 

For once (apologies to Betjemen) Come friendly mods, and fall upon this thread.

Edited by No601_Swallow
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I think there's some rudeness in this thread masquerading as people (the usual people) speaking "honestly".

 

I know perfectly well what "the usual people" think, and I'm not interested in hearing them express themselves yet again.

 

I am, however, very interested to hear what Zak and Loft have to say, without people irately jabbing their virtual fingers into the Devs' chests. This is because what the devs say has a bearing on my in-game experience, unlike most of the rest of the contributions on this forum.

 

For once (apologies to Betjemen) Come friendly mods, and fall upon this thread.

 

You do realise you are not the only member of this forum, don't you?

Everyone has the right to express their opinion if it doesn't violate the rules.

Edited by ST_ami7b5
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Update.

There's a chance that when we have time/resources such things as SSAO and post contrast may be made optional. So, someday maybe, yep. When the big things are released and when there's time before the next big ones.

  • Upvote 13

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Hey Potenz. I'm gonna simply quote Loft, if you don't mind:

1) There's a number of combinations of video settings that can cause serious performance issues, which always serves as a ground for very agressive feedback. We prevented the possibility of such combinations;

2) There's no one who knows our own technology better than us. And we are offering optimal variants. A PC that doesn't run the game on presets well won't perform better without the presets;

3) Comes from p.1 - we would need to find out all possible week points that could crash the game, cause memory to leak, etc. It would have taken very long to test the project, but as you know we didn't have much time.

Yeah, I think it'll be public in March. TBC.

 

1.) Phew you dodged that bullet... I haven't seen any bad/aggressive feedback since the presets appeared  :) /S

 

2.) This would be so true, if 777 was manufacturing console games and I owned a console. In the very least people that own a PC like the illusion of choice - even if you think they shouldn't have it. Providing that choice and than taking it back was a mistake. There's no single optimal setting for everybody. It's a fallacy. Different people will have different CPU/GPU/MOBO/RAM and OS settings and therefore will benefit from different options. It would be really simple to leave the current presets + advanced options with just a disclaimer that if you the player wants technical support, he must run on one of the 4 presets.

 

3.)Use a disclaimer, label it "experimental options", something like that. Where there's a will there's a way. 

 

EDIT: just read your update, there is light at the end of a very long tunnel  :salute:

Edited by hnbdgr
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I think there's some rudeness in this thread masquerading as people (the usual people) speaking "honestly".

 

I know perfectly well what "the usual people" think, and I'm not interested in hearing them express themselves yet again.

 

I am, however, very interested to hear what Zak and Loft have to say, without people irately jabbing their virtual fingers into the Devs' chests. This is because what the devs say has a bearing on my in-game experience, unlike most of the rest of the contributions on this forum.

 

For once (apologies to Betjemen) Come friendly mods, and fall upon this thread.

 

I have seen some very legitimate questions, that are getting answered for the most part, and that is certainly appreciated.

I have not seen anything I would perceive to be rudeness.

 

After all, this thread's OP , was regarding questions. Glad to see some answers.

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Update.

There's a chance that when we have time/resources such things as SSAO and post contrast may be made optional. So, someday maybe, yep. When the big things are released and when there's time before the next big ones.

 

That would be nice but why don't you work on an upgrade to DX 11 or 12, Zak?...

For me the priority would be a new DX Engine instead of a DX9 with SSAO ... would be more  worth it to wait ...

Edited by VSG1_eGGi

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..

1) There's a number of combinations of video settings that can cause serious performance issues..

This caught my interest, care to elaborate or give me one of these lethal combo's?

Would love to test them in one of all my other sims and see how my computer dies standing on it's knees in horror.

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The ROF AI is not broken in the Career. The issue lies in the mission design. Pat just told the AI to fight all the time that is why you see a difference. Maybe he is smarter than us. Pat is not bound to deadlines or budgets so he has had infinite time to build his PWCG and it's great. I tell people to play it all the time if they don't like ours. And there are those that enjoy our ROF career and those that don't. This is an old story. I've requested changes to the ROF Career many times, but budgets, usage stats resources all play a role in what we focus on. But we find ways sometimes to improve things by working with others like Luke who has taken time on our behalf and tweaked different parameters to improve the ROF Career. That's all that has been possible on that front. Loft and I differ on many things in ROF and BOS and are arguments over the years have been brutal, but I am not the final say on design. This has been known for a long time. Out of it comes compromises that help solve problems and improve our titles over time. This community needs to lighten up a bit and stop attacking us and calling us names for making decisions we feel are best for our company. If Loft simplifies things its because it's caused a headache for us in the past and he's trying to make the team more efficient to allow the team to focus on other items we see as more crucial. Having you guys complain on a forum takes no time out of our day, but having to explain to users why their game is running slow does and costs us money.

 

Jason 

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Thanks Jason. I guess the best you can do is to publish the FMB with campaign support and let the community to create missions and careers. Do not spend your resources on something the community can create (better). We all will profit.

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If Loft simplifies things its because it's caused a headache for us in the past and he's trying to make the team more efficient to allow the team to focus on other items we see as more crucial. Having you guys complain on a forum takes no time out of our day, but having to explain to users why their game is running slow does and costs us money.

 

Jason

I think this is being a bit short sighted.

 

Surely a 5.7 on metacritic and lots of negative criticism of bos is not helping it sell well.

 

Not having to support graphics options may save a bit but the resulting negative publicity must be costly. I have seen plenty of other games that started out with lots of promise in beta/ea, but then they start making decisions that anger the community. And sure enough those games die a slow death.

 

Don't undervalue a happy community that can do a lot to promote your game for free.

Edited by LizLemon
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I hope for DX12 too

All I am hoping for is that in the end (2016?), I can start the offline and online campaign without the frame rate lowering down to 20fps on the lowest setting possible. Hopefully.

Edited by roaming_gnome

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Good to get a bit of insight even if simplified. The lack of a 'proper' career/campaign system in BoS will always be a sore point for me but it is what it is. I can certainly understand the amount of work involved in development and testing but I'd still love to know if more is known about why it's less popular with players.

 

Having installed and uninstalled RoF several times and trying the campaign each time the single biggest problem for me was the limitation imposed by the business model. It was fiddly finding a place in the campaign where you could play given the limited starting plane set. This was exacerbated by death = restart, I never payed long enough to seee if this was optional. I also don't have a particularly strong interest in WWI aircraft so I never got into the game.

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you guys complain on a forum takes no time out of our day, but having to explain to users why their game is running slow does and costs us money.

 

Jason 

 

 

You people are unbelievable.

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You people are unbelievable.

As in...so we can't spend money on more broadly wanted improvements and development instead of having to concentrate on the self-inflicted woes of individuals.....?

That's how I read it.

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As in...so we can't spend money on more broadly wanted improvements and development instead of having to concentrate on the self-inflicted woes of individuals.....?

That's how I read it.

You should be their PR person! It would come across much more tactfully and would prevent many, many communication mishaps.  ;)

Edited by hnbdgr

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You people are unbelievable.

 

And I thought I m alone on the planet  :biggrin:  No matter how I look at it;, it always sounds the same.....unbelievable!

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I understand the viewpoint on graphics presets, I don`t like the presets especially that SSAO net curtain effect , that really should be optional asap. I think a lot of folks think that there`s an unlimited pot of development cash and the devs are going to be millionaires out of this...if only that was true. Time costs money and it`s those at the sharp end with a full appreciation of time/cost/resources that are in the best position to make the decisions, not the hear-say brigade that know better than those whose livelihood depends on it. I don`t like everything that`s gone on, especially some of the piss poor choices made, but rest assured there`s sweet FA WW2 flight-sim wise on the horizon and constant ridicule of those prepared to risk their reputation and livelihood on such an adventure will benefit us nought.

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I think a lot of folks think that there`s an unlimited pot of development cash

I agree. That Baron guy above is a perfect example.

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Bah. What do I know? I'm just the customer, therefore what I want must be wrong.

 

I really want to buy your next product and support this game, but if the unlocks are not removed from BoS and basic problems such as curious flight models (with no open source references) are not addressed I will not be putting up my cash the next time around.

 

I'm sure I am not alone in this view.

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We are customers, not investors. 
Threatening the devs not to buy their game just because a few features seem to bother some more than others is just silly.

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Thanks Jason. I guess the best you can do is to publish the FMB with campaign support and let the community to create missions and careers. Do not spend your resources on something the community can create (better). We all will profit.

 

This is my plan. I have just not found the right person yet.

 

Jason

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The ROF AI is not broken in the Career. The issue lies in the mission design. Pat just told the AI to fight all the time that is why you see a difference. Maybe he is smarter than us. Pat is not bound to deadlines or budgets so he has had infinite time to build his PWCG and it's great. I tell people to play it all the time if they don't like ours.

I play 95% stock Career, 5% PWCG, with radar map icons on - I don't believe my time is worth guessing where AI planes may be - so I see what's actually going on in missions beyond players visual range. Planes in stock career spawn at large distance from player and go about their business and are very easy to miss - without map icons, aaa fire, friendly balloons going down, keeping eye out on enemy airfields are main telling signs. But with map icons on, you can see escorted enemy recon patrolling your side, enemies scrambling to low to intercept you, enemies circling over important features (which react to hostiles in Channel Map but just circle in Western Front careers).  From my experience with PWCG, while it has some traffic, it provides most of its action by spawning random enemy flight(s) close enough to player to jump him in few minutes. In PWCG the action knows where to find you. Historical traffic vs making sure you meet enemy.

 

And yes, I'm another of "minority" with hunderds of hours in career, can't imagine ROF without it. Play mostly MP these days, but still don't imagine taking new plane into MP without logging couple of months worth of career missions in it to familiarise.

 

Back to the original topic,  I believe mission generator  included in BoS campaign is more than good enough for a basic career mode; just add between-missions elements like multiple pilot profiles, detailed logs, advancing timeline and filler like pilot names/decorations / changing background for  briefing. Make career mechanism decide which mission player flies next, and from what field, then generate the mission exactly the same way as for current career, have player fly it, collect the results and advance the career. Should take much of workload off since campaign missions are already made.

Edited by Trupobaw
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You people are unbelievable.

 

No, we're forced to choose between trying to make a simpler system that doesn't generate support tickets or endless tinkering which gives a predictable performance result for the vast majority of users or having some in the community not like the changes we made to avoid those tickets. Problems either way. So please don't take my comments out of context. I was giving you a rationale as to why sometimes decisions are made in a certain way. Loft's job is to balance budget, time, resources and achievable features and content for you. Nothing unbelievable there.

 

I see lots of suggestions we invest in this or that technology. Well, that takes money and time. We have to make a calculated guess on what will work and what will not. The forum only tells part of the story and those that yell loudest do not always represent the majority. I get lots of positive emails and PMs that say we are doing a good job and to stay the course and those users purposely stay off the forum because it is so negative and angry. And I've said it before, our slow death as some really want to happen has lasted almost 6 years now and 2 major products with more coming and many updates and tweaks etc. Just an example, some were comparing some Steam stats against other titles. It looked like no one was playing BOS, but we looked at it using our internal system and it was 10X the other titles for the day. So, we have lots of happy users and some loud upset users. Would I change a few things? Of course and some changes and new things are coming, but as we saw with ROF it is a marathon and not a sprint. 

 

Jason

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Further to Leaf's post,

 

Investors have the right to raise bloody hell when the product is not going as they think it should

 

Customers have the right to buy the product... or not.   Enough said.

 

 

It's not a perfect product, but good job team on keeping the project on track, on a reasonable timeline and probably garnering more happy customer than unhappy.

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This is my plan. I have just not found the right person yet.

 

Jason

 

Maybe you could contact the people/guy from desastersoft, he made a lot of VERY good campaigns for il2 clod (although the game was dead without), maybe you negotiate a contract and he develop a nice campaign or two which you could be sold via the il2 bos store and steam (via licence or franchise or for free with reasonable revenue share ). Its just a question of revenue and percentage! Il 2 would become more interesting for sp only customer, increase its overall meta score and solve many problems with the complaining part of the community. The financial risk is eliminated, resource saved and additional revenue assured. 

 

-> Image, popularity, feature added, pleasure community, save time and resources, address wider audience !!!! 

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No, we're forced to choose between trying to make a simpler system that doesn't generate support tickets or endless tinkering which gives a predictable performance result for the vast majority of users or having some in the community not like the changes we made to avoid those tickets. Problems either way. So please don't take my comments out of context. I was giving you a rationale as to why sometimes decisions are made in a certain way. Loft's job is to balance budget, time, resources and achievable features and content for you. Nothing unbelievable there.

 

I see lots of suggestions we invest in this or that technology. Well, that takes money and time. We have to make a calculated guess on what will work and what will not. The forum only tells part of the story and those that yell loudest do not always represent the majority. I get lots of positive emails and PMs that say we are doing a good job and to stay the course and those users purposely stay off the forum because it is so negative and angry. And I've said it before, our slow death as some really want to happen has lasted almost 6 years now and 2 major products with more coming and many updates and tweaks etc. Just an example, some were comparing some Steam stats against other titles. It looked like no one was playing BOS, but we looked at it using our internal system and it was 10X the other titles for the day. So, we have lots of happy users and some loud upset users. Would I change a few things? Of course and some changes and new things are coming, but as we saw with ROF it is a marathon and not a sprint. 

 

Jason

 There is no need for justification i think. So many people have stated how great your work was and nearly everybody want the success of this game. As you said only few very loud are complaining and most people who are happy spend their time IN  game, not on the forum. Most whining , flaming , discussing people in here are never / rarely seen in Il 2 because they spend more time discussing. (or sp of course, what would be nonsense because they are complaining about sp same time xD )

 

The game is young and released for 2 month now. Time will come, bring improvements and features. Most important, we got a very solid game regarding dm fm grafic interface. Everything else is a matter of time. 

 

Look at Eagle Dynamics, they never talk to their people what gonna be released when or how. They need 4 years to develop a new engine while everyone is playing a version thats full of bugs and problems and expensive stuff (well i own all aircraft and helos but ... nervermind) and nobody complains. I think people in here should be much more patient and kind to each other!! 

Edited by =]VLA[=Ravonmith

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This is my plan. I have just not found the right person yet.

 

Jason

You mean found the right person to work on fmb?

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Maybe you could contact the people/guy from desastersoft, he made a lot of VERY good campaigns for il2 clod (although the game was dead without), maybe you negotiate a contract and he develop a nice campaign or two which you could be sold via the il2 bos store and steam (via licence or franchise or for free with reasonable revenue share ). Its just a question of revenue and percentage! Il 2 would become more interesting for sp only customer, increase its overall meta score and solve many problems with the complaining part of the community. The financial risk is eliminated, resource saved and additional revenue assured.

 

-> Image, popularity, feature added, pleasure community, save time and resources, address wider audience !!!!

 

Thomas Voss of Desastersoft told me he approached 1C/777 during development but it went nowhere. He has stopped doing add ons for sims now anyway.

 

H

Edited by heinkill

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Thomas Voss of Desastersoft told me he approached 1C/777 during development but it went nowhere. He has stopped doing add ons for sims now anyway.

 

H

 

I heard the same but was not sure about the source of that information. :( Maybe there are other developer who made great campaigns. Maybe its also a question to share the right amount of the revenue to convince Thomas Voss :D

Edited by =]VLA[=Ravonmith

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So there is no chance of making the ssao user selectable?

 

 

Please, let us disable at least that !

 

Edit : Sorry, hadn't read the Zak statement about that : So I mean, please, let us disable that ASAP ! :)

Edited by Solmyr

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I guess one thing should be kept in mind : As the dev team, producer, investors (?) etc need their project to be profitable, comparing in the so confidential market we're talking about, there are 2 possibilities, at least for al little company :

 

- The company is forced to do choices and sacrifices

 

or

 

- The company dies. No more very accurate and realistic warbirds simulators anymore...

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