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LizLemon

Oculus support looking iffy

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Translated post by loft

 

"He is really cool. But since then, things have changed. Campaign sold, and before the sale Oculus started to say it's not for the hardcore games. At some point they just denied us all to cooperate. The new owner of this device do not see any future for him on the PC. So it seems that there is no Oculus there at the moment, there are a few expensive and useless prototypes. To us specifically, Oculus nobody cares. Therefore, we have lowered the priority of the work on this device to the trash."

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/5-voprosy-razrabotchikam/page-49

 

;_;

 

I wonder if this has something to do with dx9 being dropped.

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-snip-

 

"To us specifically, Oculus nobody cares. Therefore, we have lowered the priority of the work on this device to the trash."

 

-snip-

 

I wonder if this has something to do with dx9 being dropped.

 

Well, Loft... We care... Your consumers, your "early backers," the guys who keep the lights on... Remember us..?

 

The DX9 thing is the reason and OR (corporately) makes a convenient target. 

 

"It's their fault... Not the fact that updating our the back end of our GFX engine seems like a lot of work at the moment."

Edited by FalkeEins

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IF 777 makes the mistake not to force OR support for BOS (upgrade their engine to DX10+) they do a BIG and most likely fatal mistake. All other serious sims do offer support or work on doing so.

The sim that misses the VR train is IMHO the sim that dies.

I would bet money on that.

 

The simmer (guys that usually have no problem to spend 300 bucks for a device that increases the immersion) that will try the CV 1 only once will push the "buy" button the day or even hour he tries it for the first time. And never go back.

The Crescent bay prototype is a mindblowing experience. Even much more of an eyeopener then DK2 over DK1. Maybe even rather the kind of eyopener the DK1 is to people that never tried VR in the first place.

I am totally certain the CV1 will deliver on all expectations.

777: PLEASE dont do the mistake and let down on this device. You WILL regret it.

Edited by VSG1_Winger

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Well Falke, that's up what's best for the company, they are here to sell us a product

and i'm sure they have their priorities, before our whims, don't take me wrong i would

love to have Oculus support, but actually is more a fancy hardware that a need for

simming

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Well Falke, that's up what's best for the company, they are here to sell us a product

 

 

-snip-

 

 

We'll see about that.  ;)

 

Selling a product..? Talk about missing out on an entire market segment by ending the hopes for OR support.

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We'll see about that.  ;)

 

Selling a product..? Talk about missing out on an entire market segment by ending the hopes for OR support.

the market for oculus isn't that big now, still there's people that can't afford a high end GPU, a HOTAS or even Trackir, 

that in case of the last it's just 30% of the price for the oculus DK2, what makes you think that everybody will run to buy one.

 

as i say don't take me wrong, i'm always supporting new technologies, and if i had the money i would surely buy an Oculus,

but the market for that now isn't that big as you think

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It really depends on how hard it would be to change the engine over to dx11.  If it's an easy upgrade then they should do it and persue OR.  But I doubt that's the case.  I would bet moving now to dx11 would mean stopping all other work.  No new planes, no new maps no new flight models, no DM improvements no full mission builder.  Full stop, start over.  If that's the case then I hope they pass.  at this point in time it is not worth it to cater to the small numbers that I would bet will buy OR in the next 2 years.

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Why would 3d modelers have to stop work to make dx11 happen?

 

It would be the programmers who have to rewrite the graphics engine to take advantage of dx11. Unless the fm/dm, map makers, ect guys are pulling double duty, it shouldn't impact those areas.

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They shouldn't have stated that support OR support was inbound. I would have rather seen posts of uncertainty. But I witnessed several confirmations of support by the devs. It's a shame

Edited by driftaholic

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Bear in mind that it's a small team. If they had the resources to make the switch to DX10/11, they would have done so by now. 
Let's get the major upcoming updates (FMB, Dserver, Ju 52, oxygen and their "surprise") out of the way, and once things have settled a bit like they did in RoF, I'd start thinking of switching to DX11. 

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The OR isn't out. It's success will depend on how accessible the or manufacturer makes it. Not whether a small team of devs for this game can implement it. All sim development companies are small. If OR wants devs to support it then they need to make it easy for them. Provide support not barriers, or this tech will be dead before it hits 5he ground.

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VR/AR is the future, especially gaming/simming.   Some will quite happily continue normal monitor gaming, but the majority who try VR will move on.  There won't be enough people staying to fund further development in already miniscule 2D combat flight sim market.  It won't happen overnight, and there are quite a few VR software/hardware hurdles to cross, but it will certainly happen.  Infact VR could reinvigorate the combat flight sim market.   DCS World is positioning itself nicely to corner the immediate hardcore combat flight sim VR market, and WT the sim light crowd.  At the moment It appears Loft thinks it too expensive/hard to upgrade their DX9 game engine.  There appears to be a few relatively complex space flight sims that are making a push in the VR market.  No word yet if the company that bought/licenced Microsoft FSX will venture into the VR space.

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The OR isn't out. It's success will depend on how accessible the or manufacturer makes it. Not whether a small team of devs for this game can implement it. All sim development companies are small. If OR wants devs to support it then they need to make it easy for them. Provide support not barriers, or this tech will be dead before it hits 5he ground.

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They shouldn't have stated that support OR support was inbound. I would have rather seen posts of uncertainty. But I witnessed several confirmations of support by the devs. It's a shame

 

Things understandably changed.  Those statements were made before Oculus Rift decided to drop SDK support of DX9 sims.  

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The OR isn't out. It's success will depend on how accessible the or manufacturer makes it. Not whether a small team of devs for this game can implement it. All sim development companies are small. If OR wants devs to support it then they need to make it easy for them. Provide support not barriers, or this tech will be dead before it hits 5he ground.

 

VR will do just fine without  support for DX9 sims.   Companies like Facebook, Microsoft, Sony, Google, along with many other large and small companies are spending billions building their own VR/AR hardware.  Along with an avalanche of new and old software companies creating content.   Just check out VR Focus,  Reddit VR, with  links to multiple other sites following the VR revolution.

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VR will do just fine without support for DX9 sims. Companies like Facebook, Microsoft, Sony, Google, along with many other large and small companies are spending billions building their own VR/AR hardware. Along with an avalanche of new and old software companies creating content. Just check out VR Focus, Reddit VR, with links to multiple other sites following the VR revolution.

Is there any supported sim that is dx9 besides bos?

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Is there any supported sim that is dx9 besides bos?

 

There are a couple of third party apps that provide support for other DX9 sims.  I don't know if they don't work with BOS because of BOS software issues, or those that could make it work just aren't interested in BOS.  All I know is that the OR's next SDK won't have DX9 support, and the BOS development for what ever reason aren't modifying their game engine to DX10+ anytime soon.

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Guys,

 

I know it's fun to ridicule us, but you have no idea how Oculus operates and our experience with them. Loft has every reason to not be thrilled with his experience with Oculus. I'm not too happy with them either. Google translating his words from Russian is not going to tell you the whole story either. 

 

We tried very hard to support their devices as they grew and introduced new units and we did build support for them to the best of our ability (it wasn't perfect but it worked) when we probably should have been focusing on other stuff. They also seemed interested in working with us as I live not far from their offices, but the harder we tried to support and work with Oculus the more difficult it got. This was even before Facebook and before them dropping DX9. I can't say too much in detail due to NDAs, but basically they tried to tell us how we should make our game and unless we made it how they wanted it, they wouldn't work with us. Essentially, their hardware could not run a hardcore sim like ours in 3D with what they deemed acceptable framerates (their level of acceptability, not ours). And the Oculus team seemed puzzled why we had built a custom engine or why we needed a custom sim engine that requires large environments which does not run at a constant 100 FPS like a shooter. Our customers also do not want to necessarily see a human body in our cockpits as they demanded. So we decided to wait a bit until their hardware and software was a bit more mature before we spent any more man hours supporting something that is not even a final product.

 

However, based on the vibe from Oculus we felt that the final retail Oculus product (or at least their first retail unit) was imminent and their would be no real hurdles to using it with BOS since we had already built initial support. This is why Loft made such comments about our planned support. But then a few things happened - 1. They got bought by Facebook and they no longer cared to talk to us about technical issues. 2. Something changed in their software concerning 32 bit vs. 64 bit which broke our implementation. But we were hopeful a solution could eventually be found. 3. They simply dropped support for DX9 games which ours is one.  

 

So that's the progression from initial support to none. Not our fault and now we are in a tough spot because we do not have the right requirements since they changed them and we don't have the budget to build such support at the moment. There was zero intention by us to not have support. Just a string of unfortunate events. It has nothing to do with us not willfully supporting our users or any other motive.

 

Oculus seems to work really well with off the shelf engines that most other developers use for shooters and whatnot. We have a custom engine and huge environments and complex physics that suck frames so this is a difficult situation for us developmentally because Oculus is 3D and everything needs to be drawn twice. There seems to be two kinds of developers who have success supporting Oculus. The first is large mega-teams like you find at EA or Valve who can stick a team of people on the implementation task. Then there are tiny teams with super talented individuals who make super niche games that use some off the shelf engine that already works well with Oculus and where meeting budgets or deadlines is not a huge priority for them. We are in a different situation entirely. We are a small team with a super complex product, small budgets, a custom engine and a plan we are in the middle of implementing. Any deviation from that causes major disruptions to planned updates.

 

Oculus also really seems to want to "change the gaming industry" with VR by changing the requirements for gaming such as only supporting DX10 and above. This puts smaller teams like us in a bind. Oculus is not the cute little startup it once was, they are aiming to be THE VR company and with it comes big corporate policies and choices that affects teams like ours. You can argue coulda, woulda, shoulda all day long, but Oculus has not made it easy on us to support their product and they pulled support for BOS, not us. It's disappointing, but that is the situation.

 

I am hopeful something can change in the future where we have enough money to build new support for Oculus and make whatever changes necessary to get there. That of course requires more sales. 

 

The VR revolution looks promising and many companies are now involved in this space. It's got a long way to go before it completely supplants your monitor. Maybe it will come fast, maybe not. Time will tell. We have nothing personal against VR and we did give it a go, but when it becomes simpler to add it to our titles I am sure we will support it. VR does not need sims to make it big and whether we need OR support today or tomorrow as some here claim to make it remains to be seen. People have counted us out more than once before and we're still here creating stuff. There are other things I'd like to work on before we worry about OR support again.

 

The perils of being a sim developer never ceases to amaze me.

 

Jason

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Thanks Jason. I really appreciate the info. It's Occulus' that will certainly be loosing a sale from me. Not the other way around.

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As cool as VR sounds, I have a hard time imagining how a complex flight sim is going to be pushed in 3D at 8K res at 100fps. Maybe someday...

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Well I used to care about both Oculus Rift (I own a DK2 and do not play on monitor anymore) and IL2 BOS (and RoF), but if you're just going to drop yet another promise and drop Oculus Rift support, then I'll just care about the Oculus Rift and keep playing DCS and Prepar3d, you know, these simulations wich are so much simpler than the too complex for the Rift BOS engine. SIgh, I can't believe it.

Edited by ptisinge
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An idea of what could be

 

[Youtube]

[Youtube]

[/Youtube]

[Youtube]

[/Youtube]

 

Hopefully the devs add rift support sooner rather then later. It'd be a shame to see bos left behind by other sims.

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Well, Loft... We care... Your consumers, your "early backers," the guys who keep the lights on... Remember us..?

The DX9 thing is the reason and OR (corporately) makes a convenient target.

"It's their fault... Not the fact that updating our the back end of our GFX engine seems like a lot of work at the moment."

 

What do you mean we..... ;)

 

We'll see about that.  ;)

 

Selling a product..? Talk about missing out on an entire market segment by ending the hopes for OR support.

 

Who knows... Occulus could wind up being as relevant as Betamax..

 

the market for oculus isn't that big now, still there's people that can't afford a high end GPU, a HOTAS or even Trackir, 

that in case of the last it's just 30% of the price for the oculus DK2, what makes you think that everybody will run to buy one.

 

as i say don't take me wrong, i'm always supporting new technologies, and if i had the money i would surely buy an Oculus,

but the market for that now isn't that big as you think

 

+1

 

The OR isn't out. It's success will depend on how accessible the or manufacturer makes it. Not whether a small team of devs for this game can implement it. All sim development companies are small. If OR wants devs to support it then they need to make it easy for them. Provide support not barriers, or this tech will be dead before it hits 5he ground.

 

 

The perils of being a sim developer never ceases to amaze me.

Jason

 

Indeed................... :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute:

 

Thanks Jason. I really appreciate the info. It's Occulus' that will certainly be loosing a sale from me. Not the other way around.

 

Me too.. and I concur. I was never planning to get it anyway... not only that in addition to the options posted above Occulus is not the only option in town and certainly not necessarily the best.... not that anyone can definitively say at this point.  I bought a TIR 1 .. and returned it... It was TIR 3 that enabled me to appreciate TIR.. and why I have a TIR 5 today.. It still kills me how so many folks seem to be waiting for an opportunity to throw this sim under the bus.. This sim has more life in it than many give it credit for. I have no doubt that once the ME & DS are released it will open up considerably..

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There is already a while bunch of other companies developing VR. No need to get hysterical again guys. And certainly not so early.

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Thanks for the update Jason.

 

I was optimistic that the Facebook acquisition would lead to better Oculus support. I suppose I was naive It's a shame that they are so snobby about their minimum experience requirements. Nvidia's latest GPUs (and whatever AMD has in the works) would surely have no trouble playing BOS in 3D at acceptable FPS.

 

As disappointing as this is, I'm glad you're focusing on enhancing the existing BOS experience rather than wasting time with Oculus.

 

Regards

Albino


Thanks Jason. I really appreciate the info. It's Occulus' that will certainly be loosing a sale from me. Not the other way around.

 

+1

 

When the time comes, assuming some choice of equivalent VR tech, this will be remembered.

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Thanks for the clarification.  OR is out for now. A little bummed out as I got the DK2 so I could enjoy it with BOS.  I am confident that at some point down the road that will happen in one form or another.  Looking forward to the roadmap for the continued development of this sim  :ph34r:.

S~

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I think the real question is why was 777 treated this way by oculus?

 

They demanded a body in cockpit for vr? Yet dcs supports oculus and doesn't have a body.

 

They demanded 100fps? Yet pr3pared supports oculus and uses a frame interpolator to hit the target fps even though it runs at far below 100fps. Ditto for plenty of other titles.

 

They don't want to work with small devs who use custom graphic engines? Yet outerra, no man's sky, asseto corsa and plenty of other small devs with their own engines have oculus support. And they have expanded indie dev outreach in a big way since being bought by facebook.

 

Everything I've read paints the impression that they are very proactive about supporting vr in games both big and small.

 

777s treatment by oculus appears to be something of an anomaly. I wonder if it has something to do with them being a russian company and facebook wanting to avoid business dealings with them because of the sanctions and political situation. If it is not that then why else would they be treated so differently?

 

Just wondering aloud here.

Edited by LizLemon
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Well I used to care about both Oculus Rift (I own a DK2 and do not play on monitor anymore) and IL2 BOS (and RoF), but if you're just going to drop yet another promise and drop Oculus Rift support, then I'll just care about the Oculus Rift and keep playing DCS and Prepar3d, you know, these simulations wich are so much simpler than the too complex for the Rift BOS engine. SIgh, I can't believe it.

 

You need to carefully re-read Jason's statement before making an ill-informed comment like that.

 

 

777s treatment by oculus appears to be something of an anomaly. I wonder if it has something to do with them being a russian company and facebook wanting to avoid business dealings with them because of the sanctions and political situation.

 

They are not a Russian company. 

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At Jason:

I understand now. I will keep supporting BOS anyways until either you guys can manage to make OR support happen - OR - another sim offers WWII combat with cool scenarios and awesome flightmodels like yours does.

There is already a Sim that is on the OR route. Not yet ahead of you since they have no real WWII theater and not enough planes. But they are working on it.

I fear that once they manage to build the yet lacking content i just mentioned there really is no good reason to support your sim anymore but pure sympathy. And i doubt that will be enough. For me it will but most likely not enough others.

This is my fear.

Keep up the good work and give us something to pay for:)

Maybe even calaculate the cost/effort for the needed engineupgrade, pack it in an addonpack and let us preorder it. I would pay gladly for it.

 

EDIT: What about crowdfunding it? It could work and wouldnt hurt anyone if it didnt. Worth a try IMHO

Edited by VSG1_Winger

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Cool tech, there...

 

Is it DX9 compatible? How will it work with flight simulator titles?

I've looked into this as deeply as I could, including some patent submissions, and here's what it is generally:

 

- completely new way of rendering images. Speculations are that a rotating optical fiber strand will be used to project the image directly onto the users retina. So - instead of a "phone in a box with some lenses added" it's a radically new technology. Rendering unit will sit in a box on the users belt, goggles in the latest patent submissions look like small ski goggles.

 

- it can be used for both AR and VR. Stuff I see in patent submissions is mostly AR, but VR is also an option. The company likes to call this "cinematic reality". So far some people outside of the company have seen it in action and apparently it's pretty amazing, though the units used to demo it were fairly huge in size. 

 

So, in conclusion - the thing will probably use whatever video output it gets from wherever, but will not be rendering frames, therefore the question of DX or no DX might be irrelevant. This is my speculation - nobody knows really, they're quite secretive. Simulators etc. would fall under the VR capabilities (full scene occlusion). The patents also go into gesture control, eye position tracking is a part of the technology (for the purposes of knowing where the iris is), head tracking wouldn't be hard to add... In my view this is probably the tech that will bring AR and VR to the masses. Much more elegant than OR, in several aspects. I guess they're pretty silent due to all patents they have pending, once they're all registered and granted we will probably see more... There are some very rich companies backing this (like, say, Google) and some very smart people on board, looks very promising.

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I think the real question is why was 777 treated this way by oculus?

 

They demanded a body in cockpit for vr? Yet dcs supports oculus and doesn't have a body.

 

They demanded 100fps? Yet pr3pared supports oculus and uses a frame interpolator to hit the target fps even though it runs at far below 100fps. Ditto for plenty of other titles.

 

They don't want to work with small devs who use custom graphic engines? Yet outerra, no man's sky, asseto corsa and plenty of other small devs with their own engines have oculus support. And they have expanded indie dev outreach in a big way since being bought by facebook.

 

Everything I've read paints the impression that they are very proactive about supporting vr in games both big and small.

 

777s treatment by oculus appears to be something of an anomaly. I wonder if it has something to do with them being a russian company and facebook wanting to avoid business dealings with them because of the sanctions and political situation. If it is not that then why else would they be treated so differently?

 

Just wondering aloud here.

"They demanded a body in cockpit for vr? Yet dcs supports oculus and doesn't have a body."

 

DCS BS was launched with pilot

 

DCS P-51 has pilot, you can toggle it on/off it is already in  the game, part of the designed code

 

Sorry your facts are wrong there....does not give much credibility to other hypothesis you may have, and I think mentioning prepare3D owned by a company with a $45 billion a year budget and comparing them to 1CGS/777 is rather missing the point

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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Guest deleted@30725

Thanks Jason for taking the time to write that. It was a really interesting read. Appreciate your efforts.

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I knew OR was screwed once FB got their hands on it.

It's now a multi billion company. They need to make multi billions in the future. The sim market means nothing to them anymore. I wouldn't be astonished, if they drop the whole PC support.

 

I don't see any problem for 777. If someone is interested in a good simulation, he will not stop this interest because of missing OR support. And if someone buys a OR and looks for supported games, a simulator would be the last thing he would choose.

Edited by BlackDevil

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