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Pringliano

PERSPECTIVE...

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Yesterday night I spent a good deal of time flying online at both DCS and il2-BoS MP Servers, and it was, again, a great time in both sims :-)

 

Finally found a server with a mod that allows me to glimpse other aircraft in DCS like I generally can't, but... sorry for starting with DCS comments, this is not the point of this thread...

 

The point is, how much more realistic / believable / plausible / immersive the overall view perspective is, specially during dogfights, in BoS than in DCS !!! It's tremendously different, for better, in BoS.

 

In DCS I have a strange feeling that the aircraft that I am chasing or running away from have 6DOF projections that are ... unplausible. Using zoom makes it even worst sometimes. In BoS the overall view perspectives, within the cockpit, under the most different situations, using Zoom / Pan / whatever, make sense! They actually contribute to make dogfighting and chasing / running away from other aircraft so much more immersive.

 

I had to share this, since I sometimes also share positive aspects of the other sim...

 

And... again, the absence of a more "active" atmosphere, makes flying in DCS feel really a bit "on-rails" compared to BoS... That's another big positive and immersive factor IMO of il2 BoS.

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Graphics-wise there's just no contest between DCS and BoS. That goes for the relatively unimportant eyecandy as well as the really important stuff as you mentioned. To me the absolute worst thing about DCS is the horrendous long distance rendering, but in so many ways it just looks 'off' and dated.

 

That's not to bash DCS. That sim does things that BoS can only dream of, and in a few select areas, it has BoS beat on graphics like the modeling rendering of cockpits. Overall though, BoS just is the best looking WW2 sim out there.

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EDGE-landscapes do look nice, but the lighting, particle effects, clouds etc. are still sub-par tbh. (not that it really matters that much, it's mainly eye candy) and maybe I'm just not in the loop, but I haven't heard anything about, what EDGE will do to the terrible LOD issues in DCS.

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EDGE-landscapes do look nice, but the lighting, particle effects, clouds etc. are still sub-par tbh. (not that it really matters that much, it's mainly eye candy) and maybe I'm just not in the loop, but I haven't heard anything about, what EDGE will do to the terrible LOD issues in DCS.

 

Well if they don't improve the LoD issues which alot of people have and still are complaining about there will be a uproar over it plus netcode, no sim is with out sin.

 

Here is another vid with clouds.

 

Edited by t4trouble

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DCS EDGE 2 + WWII map (not just Normandy going by the dimensions) + Typhoon + living environment + decent planeset + decent LoD etc (+ new pc to run it all) = heaven

 

That's at least 2 years away so in the meantime I'll go with BoS and maybe TF 5 depending what it brings.

 

von Tom

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Not for long...

For long doesn't count. What is is what counts..... Personally I think that CoD looks better than DCS .... Visually wT is right up there too... I like the fact that they all have a unique look to them... I think that all of them can do that photrealistic thing very well....I have seen screenshots of DCS that look like photos... and some edited screens from BoS that looked like old B&W photos...

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That's at least 2 years away so in the meantime I'll go with BoS and maybe TF 5 depending what it brings.  

 

Quote from wags

 

 

 

 This development work in 2014 will allow us to release DCS World 2 and new maps in 2015 and bring the DCS World to the next level.

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Edge  maby i close but other WW2 stuff not so much.

 

But if they fix planes visiblilty in Edge and online stability and smooth playing i think DCS has chance to be very good sim for hardcore simmers even before WW2 Normandy map relase.

Edited by 303_Kwiatek

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Quote from wags

 

Seeing as this thread is called perspective, it should be noted that EDGE was announced in 2011....and Nevada map cited for release that year

 

Not knocking DCS I am looking forward to experience EDGE when it is finally released

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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I love DCS and Clod ,and the immersion of BOS ,  remmeber dcs is an old sim now and it was only designed for the jet era  , EDGE looks amazing , there is still a lot of work to go into BOS .

where is the  TeamSpeak servers  , last night all was empty .

i feel the multiplayer missions are too short , if i join the game , it is over in ten mints i might as well quit by the time i get airbourne  , you are loosing people .

if you go onto ATAG server or storm of war , the missions run for 3 hours , in some cases , and each player is fighting his own battle or is working with others to complete the bombing missions on TS .

 

we are missing that here .

please point me in the right direction .

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DCS EDGE 2 + WWII map (not just Normandy going by the dimensions) + Typhoon + living environment + decent planeset + decent LoD etc (+ new pc to run it all) = heaven

 

That's at least 2 years away so in the meantime I'll go with BoS and maybe TF 5 depending what it brings.

 

von Tom

 

TF5 will maybe later like DCS EDGE 2. How long we are waiting for TF 5 ? Two years? Im afraid that about TF5 we can say only - maybe. IMO no other simulator - DCS included - is not so good like BoS now. And im sure, that if Devs give to us MC.202, Ju-52, "summer" maps and 64 players in server - BoS will have long time without any competition.

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What makes a great flight sim visual experience is a set of these features

- visibility of distant, no so distant and near objects

- visibility changes due to colors, sun, shade, darkness

- visibility changes due to weather conditions like fog, clouds, rain, snowing

 

OK, DCS has its eye candy. Cockpits are great in Cliffs of Dover. Then one hits this LOD thing, large clouds poping up when one gets closer, general absence of low level cloudiness. I as a lone wolf love to play this game with being invisible when situation allows and only BOS gives it to me generously. So yes, BOS is the number one so far. Regardless of being only a DX9 application.

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IMHO, eye candy is a very important part of any sim, the immersion and

realism it a sum of all DM-FM-WM-PH-EC all together makes a great simming

experience. we can have the best physics but if the overall graphics are low

poly count it will not give a real representation of what is trying to representate. 

Same goes for great graphics but poor in the other areas.

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When on earth is EDGE coming out? It's been "almost ready" for 2 years now.

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Graphics-wise there's just no contest between DCS and BoS. That goes for the relatively unimportant eyecandy as well as the really important stuff as you mentioned. To me the absolute worst thing about DCS is the horrendous long distance rendering, but in so many ways it just looks 'off' and dated.

 

That's not to bash DCS. That sim does things that BoS can only dream of, and in a few select areas, it has BoS beat on graphics like the modeling rendering of cockpits. Overall though, BoS just is the best looking WW2 sim out there.

No so sure about that... While BOS is a great looking sim there are things in Clod I like better but then again all of this is subjective. Also remember edge is coming out for DCS and new Maps are being created for the WWII theater. The first map is going to be the Western Front.

What makes a great flight sim visual experience is a set of these features

- visibility of distant, no so distant and near objects

- visibility changes due to colors, sun, shade, darkness

- visibility changes due to weather conditions like fog, clouds, rain, snowing

 

OK, DCS has its eye candy. Cockpits are great in Cliffs of Dover. Then one hits this LOD thing, large clouds poping up when one gets closer, general absence of low level cloudiness. I as a lone wolf love to play this game with being invisible when situation allows and only BOS gives it to me generously. So yes, BOS is the number one so far. Regardless of being only a DX9 application.

You can fix a lot of that by going into your config and changing the rendering distances for clouds. Also Clod is work in progress and there is a lot more in the pipeline. We will see if it comes true but Clod was supposed to support real time weather.

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No so sure about that... While BOS is a great looking sim there are things in Clod I like better but then again all of this is subjective. Also remember edge is coming out for DCS and new Maps are being created for the WWII theater. The first map is going to be the Western Front.

 

I'm well aware of what's coming up for DCS, but even with the better looking EDGE landscape, there's just no hiding a 10+ years old graphics engine. As I said: I'm not out to bash DCS, it's just a little sad, that the awesome 3d models created for the new planes look so bland and artificial when rendered in DCS.

 

As for CLoD, it's got nice cockpits and plane models and very abitious landscape details, yet to me it just lacks balance in the visuals. The planes look distinctly out of place against the landscape for instance. BoS like RoF both have a very pleasant harmonized look, where everything seems to fit together quite well.

Edited by Finkeren
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How long we are waiting for TF 5 ? Two years? Im afraid that about TF5 we can say only - maybe. 

 

As mater of curiosity, as the TF 4.30 was released on March, 2014, less than one year...

 

BTW - This can be helpful for DCS: Revouninstaller.   :good:

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Guest deleted@30725

Both good games.

 

I can't fly the huey in BOS and I can't fly the lagg in dcs.

 

(starts playing tiny sad violin)

Edited by deleted@30725

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The fact that RoF and BoS are able to model real trees by the hundreds and thousands is one of the real plusses of DN engine, in other some other sims if they were implemented FPS would be non-existent, or the game engines cant handle it, the idea of being able to fly through trees turns me off as an issue in 2014/15. I admit it is not such an issue in a pure Jet sim but the fact that you can do it in BoS/RoF with little impact for performance is something that is just glossed over too much IMHO, some people will say it is a flight sim and not a tree simulator but no trees are personally an immersion breaker for me

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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The fact that RoF and BoS are able to model real trees by the hundreds and thousands is one of the real plusses of DN engine, in other some other sims if they were implemented FPS would be non-existent, or the game engines cant handle it, the idea of being able to fly through trees turns me off as an issue in 2014/15. I admit it is not such an issue in a pure Jet sim but the fact that you can do it in BoS/RoF with little impact for performance is something that is just glossed over too much IMHO, some people will say it is a flight sim and not a tree simulator but no trees are personally an immersion breaker for me

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Yes, the tree collisions are nice. The physics are very nice to. Impacts, slow impacts, fast impacts etc - the mechanism is great (even if early on the airplanes were breaking like paper and even now some are, but it's definitely not as bad as it was.)

 

This game has many positives. There is also a believable feeling of flight in some phases of flight. Still feels a bit too wobbly and rubber bandy at times. Bad rudder modelling results in a very stiff flight. 

 

Graphics and FSX are gorgeous if sometimes a tad over the top (smoke comes to mind)

 

All in all though, you're putting too much value on the tree collisions. Fly-through trees sure break immersion, but so do blurry planes infront of clouds, "wheel of fortune" damage model, unlocks (very historical), rubberbanding etc.

 

So it's a thing of balance. On balance it's far more interesting for me to have a dogfight in CloD (haven't had an online one DCS yet) than in BoS.  I can put up with trees or physical collision modelling because they are likely to constitute a very small part of my experience. Most of my experience will be looking for enemies (personally found it easier in Cliffs, especially against the sky above), shooting (Clod damage model wins) and flying. I prefer the CloD FM's regardless of it not having that nice floating feeling in a straight flight like BoS has.

 

Visuals are different in both, BoS certainly has some areas where it's excellent graphically.

 

And we haven't even touched things like Graphic customization, Mission builder, single player content etc. where Cliffs has the upper hand.

Edited by hnbdgr

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Every time I give CloD a go I feel like there is something between me and the plane I am supposed to be flying. I get the same feeling in First Eagles and all of the MS combat flight sims as well. It's nothing I can put my finger on or quantify but for me (and others I have talked to) it is there. Rise of Flight still gives me the best feeling of flight. BoS is a close second but it is a long fall to third place. To say that the filtered feeling of not really being there in other sims is an emmersion killer is a gross understatement. More like an emmersion evaporator!

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I'm well aware of what's coming up for DCS, but even with the better looking EDGE landscape, there's just no hiding a 10+ years old graphics engine. As I said: I'm not out to bash DCS, it's just a little sad, that the awesome 3d models created for the new planes look so bland and artificial when rendered in DCS.

EDGE is not a new landscape it's a new DX11 rendering engine. Currently DCS is a DX9c game which is the same for BOS and ROF. Clod is DX10. While I like BOS so far as you know it has a long way to go in terms of refinement. FMs DMs new theaters Aircraft etc. One of the biggest problems with BOS and DCS is the fact it's limited by the number of objects and players. I believe EDGE will address some of these limitations for DCS. Clod is currently the king when it comes to scaling. ATAG regularly has 70-80 people flying with all the targets etc. Another group is working on a competitive version of CLOD for online competitive play. I used the fly it frequently when it was flying IL2-46 but it's currently being tested using CLOD. Full real time war much like the old Scorched Earth but a different flavor. So far Clod looks to be much more robust than IL2 feature wise.

 

As for CLoD, it's got nice cockpits and plane models and very abitious landscape details, yet to me it just lacks balance in the visuals. The planes look distinctly out of place against the landscape for instance. BoS like RoF both have a very pleasant harmonized look, where everything seems to fit together quite well.

Eye of the beholder I guess.

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The fact that RoF and BoS are able to model real trees by the hundreds and thousands is one of the real plusses of DN engine, in other some other sims if they were implemented FPS would be non-existent, or the game engines cant handle it, the idea of being able to fly through trees turns me off as an issue in 2014/15.

 

This is on the list for  DCS World 2

 

 

 

  • More detailed tree models with collision for new maps

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135473

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So it's a thing of balance. On balance it's far more interesting for me to have a dogfight in CloD (haven't had an online one DCS yet) than in BoS.  I can put up with trees or physical collision modelling because they are likely to constitute a very small part of my experience. Most of my experience will be looking for enemies (personally found it easier in Cliffs, especially against the sky above), shooting (Clod damage model wins) and flying. I prefer the CloD FM's regardless of it not having that nice floating feeling in a straight flight like BoS has.  

 

 

Everytime I fly CloD I feel like I'm shooting at flying tanks. Overall, guns there do no or close to no damage at all. Its "Who damages the other radiator first-Simulator".

 

Once I took a G50 out for a ride and made two spitfires waste all their ammo on me (and they were scoring many hits!) and they didnt shot me down, any noticeable damage were some torn  airlerons/elevators, but they still worked! In factm I shot one of them and the other had to run, LMAO.

 

One the things that I love most about BoS is that the guns really do damage, and I mean, REALLY. If they start to "unbuff"/"nerf" the damage of the guns I sure would be pissed.

Edited by istruba

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BOS graphics are very well done, but I prefer COD TF's graphics.   Much of DCS's beta EDGE graphic engine is also starting to look very very good.  I'm sure BOS, COD, and DCS graphic will continue to improve, but the winner will be the development that properly implements VR support, as that's the future of flight sims.  

 

DCS is positioning itself to corner the market, by working closely with the OR developers, while building their new EDGE graphic engine.  BOS VR implementation may have just had a major setback, with the OR developers dropping DX9 support with future OR SDK's.  BOS VR should still work, but not implemented as well as it could have been if their game engine were upgraded to DX10.  BOS will have to upgrade their game engine, if they still plan to add content for years to come, and remain competitive.

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If DCS completely overhauls their particle effects and somehow updates POV movement to something more natural than swively steadycam, I'd be all in. That new map looks good. I did notice there didn't seem to be a lot of bright highlights on reflective surfaces like dials and plexi. 

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Everytime I fly CloD I feel like I'm shooting at flying tanks. Overall, guns there do no or close to no damage at all. Its "Who damages the other radiator first-Simulator".

 

Once I took a G50 out for a ride and made two spitfires waste all their ammo on me (and they were scoring many hits!) and they didnt shot me down, any noticeable damage were some torn  airlerons/elevators, but they still worked! In factm I shot one of them and the other had to run, LMAO.

 

One the things that I love most about BoS is that the guns really do damage, and I mean, REALLY. If they start to "unbuff"/"nerf" the damage of the guns I sure would be pissed.

 

Each to their own. If you like a simpler damage model I'm not going to hold it against you. Whilst In Cliffs it can (stress on the word can) take more ammo to shoot down a fighter, in BoS it's so far in the other direction it borders on absurd. When could a single 20mm shell to the wing cause it to break? Or 2 hits to the fuselage make it billow black smoke like it's a kuwaiti oilrig with wings - when the fuel tank wasn't hit.  

 

Yes in cliffs many times you don't get the instant satisfaction - and a good point can be made that 303 bullets are a bit underpowered against light targets,I'll give you that.  But overall the DM is far more balanced and good shooters can capitalize on it. In BoS you don't need to be a good shooter to inflict catastrophic damage, just a bit of luck.

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i just can't understand how people still think that CloD is such a revolutionary software,

when devs through it away to the trash bin and it shares so many flaws from 1946, seriously

that engine it's way too out dated, may Graphic wise looks good, but just that, nothing more

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i just can't understand how people still think that CloD is such a revolutionary software,

when devs through it away to the trash bin and it shares so many flaws from 1946, seriously

that engine it's way too out dated, may Graphic wise looks good, but just that, nothing more

 

Not revolutionary, but it was a massive improvement in many areas over 1946. It's a tragedy that the development went the way it went, and on release it was a stuttering non playable mess. But with the TF patches it is one of the best options out there even if still bugged in many ways. 

 

In comparison there's nothing "revolutionary" about BoS either. But you know what, I never wanted to be unfair to BoS. I pre-ordered this game knowing it won't have a clickable cockpit and all that malarkey, I didn't expect it to be the same as 1946 or CloD but something new altogether. I really wanted to like this game.  I just wanted for the gameplay in BoS to suck me in, but it just fails to do that. Unlocks, Graphic Presets, time compression - all kicked the game in the nuts by the devs. FM seems to have been ported from RoF. No single player content. Devs actively discouraging modding and tinkering with the game by public.

 

The release of BoS wasn't a release. It was a line in the sand where we lost presets, compression and gained "unlocks" and then the development continues on. We just paid extra for the whole thing to have first row seats. And you'll find people on here and elsewhere defending these design decisions... :D 

 

I want this game to improve, I will wait and come back to it and see if it will suck me in, but for now it's not doing that. I'm not alone in this: 69% on steam and 5.7 User score on metacritic. 

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i just can't understand how people still think that CloD is such a revolutionary software,

 

Touch a hangar with your wing at walking speed, and it falls off. Flies through trees. Stupid spins. Boring clouds and no atmosphere, outdated ground model etc.

 

..... but no unlocks ;)

 

That is revolutionary software !

Edited by BlackDevil
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Not revolutionary, but it was a massive improvement in many areas over 1946. It's a tragedy that the development went the way it went, and on release it was a stuttering non playable mess. But with the TF patches it is one of the best options out there even if still bugged in many ways. 

 

In comparison there's nothing "revolutionary" about BoS either. But you know what, I never wanted to be unfair to BoS. I pre-ordered this game knowing it won't have a clickable cockpit and all that malarkey, I didn't expect it to be the same as 1946 or CloD but something new altogether. I really wanted to like this game.  I just wanted for the gameplay in BoS to suck me in, but it just fails to do that. Unlocks, Graphic Presets, time compression - all kicked the game in the nuts by the devs. FM seems to have been ported from RoF. No single player content. Devs actively discouraging modding and tinkering with the game by public.

 

The release of BoS wasn't a release. It was a line in the sand where we lost presets, compression and gained "unlocks" and then the development continues on. We just paid extra for the whole thing to have first row seats. And you'll find people on here and elsewhere defending these design decisions... :D 

 

I want this game to improve, I will wait and come back to it and see if it will suck me in, but for now it's not doing that. I'm not alone in this: 69% on steam and 5.7 User score on metacritic. 

 

YOU sir...hit the nail with the hammer.......

 

AND I am very afraid that exactly THAT will be the nail to its self made coffin, in the not so long run.

 

But thats really nothing new, is it?

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Touch a hangar with your wing at walking speed, and it falls off. Flies through trees. Stupid spins. Boring clouds and no atmosphere, outdated ground model etc.

 

..... but no unlocks ;)

 

That is revolutionary software !

 

In things that matter, it is ahead of BoS, that's why there's more people playing it  ;)

 

Collisions and trees are way better done in BoS, none can disagree. Trees I can live with, Collisions are constant source of anguish for CloD flyers.

 

Clouds are relatively well modeled in Cliffs, thought they have the annoying tendency to rotate somehow when you're close to them. On the other hand they don't blur the enemy aircraft and also don't look like someone took a cloud and put it through a 20 radius gauss blur filter in photoshop.

 

Stupid spins are stupid, but TF 5.0 ought to have revised ground handling.

 

Atmosphere is in the eye of the beholder. It's what you make of the game. BoS has comparatively less of it. Once you've seen the 3 smokestacks at stalingrad at sunrise that's it. Go and play a SP mission and be amazed at the quick mission builder with 8 planes each side :lol:   Or hop online on the single 32 player server... no, it's not as atmospheric as you think it is.  Watch this and tell me if it doesn't have atmosphere:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vzuu_dWhrO8

 

 

And I never said CloD was revolutionary. I see from your post history you're one of those people that must like the way BoS has gone since day 1. Good for you.  :salute:

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