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Next patch. When and what to expect?

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Any official information?

Also a place for speculation.

 

My hopes:

 

Fw 190 levelflightperformance fixed. Violent stalls fixed.

Pictures of textured macci 202

Pictures of untextured i 16

Addition of ai ju 52

Dm for gears (when deployed at too high speeds) or at least a statement on the issue

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My hopes:

 

FW190 handling/stall tweak

 

Campaign AI wingmen staying in formation until commanded to engage targets. This alone is ruining the campaign IMO, as it is forcing me to fly a completely different style. I would like to be able to identify threats at a distance, and actually be able to plan an attack or defense instead of having to go chasing my wingmen Into a straight on free for all attack every time. Or be able to skirt around far away threats and continue flying the mission without engaging. As i have experienced so far my wingmen always break off and engage any air target they come across and ignore all my commands to form up, do as me or return to mission.

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Realistic expectation:

- Ju 52

- dserver

- Folgore WIP screens

- Client stability improvements

 

Wishes:

- FM fixes: Revised Fw 190 stall module, Bf 109 G-2 Stabilizer and non-linear throttle fix, Ju 87 Engine Rev bug fix, Yak-1 and IL-2 stall module for high AoA, Lag-5 and Lagg-3 roll rate fix

- DM: Less elevator wire loss, add more detail

- Planes: Ju 52 cockpit screenshot ( :biggrin:) , P-40 screenshots, Folgore cockpit

- Maps: Announcement for next theatre

 

Lets wiat and see.

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka

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expectations:
roadmap for, the future.

 

wishes:

roadmap to say: we will soldier on, and be in business till 2020 with 20 mo' maps and 150 mo' Planes, Carriers, CAM ships

 

fears:
done with tis Ship, closing shop, fed up, tilt, bye bye, please go play war thunder every1

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Hopefully they've sold enough copies to warrant further work on the BOS.   I'm waiting for decent OR support in combat flight sims before venturing back, although TF's COD update #5 could drag me back even without OR support.

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Campaign AI wingmen staying in formation until commanded to engage targets. This alone is ruining the campaign IMO, as it is forcing me to fly a completely different style. I would like to be able to identify threats at a distance, and actually be able to plan an attack or defense instead of having to go chasing my wingmen Into a straight on free for all attack every time. Or be able to skirt around far away threats and continue flying the mission without engaging. As i have experienced so far my wingmen always break off and engage any air target they come across and ignore all my commands to form up, do as me or return to mission.

 

+1000. A vital fix. This screws up the flight leader role which is a core element of the SP campaign and single missions. Although in my experience, if i notice them chasing off and order 'Cover me!' they will reform. But i should NOT have to do that. Wingmen - unless an attack on the flight is under way or visibly about to happen -  should report the sighting and stay in formation, letting the player/flight-leader decide what he's going to do, as Porkman says. Even in WW1 that's what would happen, albeit there was a different drill with no radios.

 

Possibly more so, fix it so that:

 

- AI Stukas can regularly take off without crashing (campaign and QM, Normal difficulty, Gumrak and other airfields). More often than not they crack up soon after takeoff. This kills ground start Stuka missions. In the supplied dive bombing mission I ONCE managed to get 4 out of 5 AI off with me, possibly by going first, reasonably quickly, and turning left soon after take off. But that may have been a fluke as, in that and other missions, most of the AI just crack up, every time.

 

- AI wingmen respond promptly and sensibly during attacks, on bombing and ground attack missions. For formation (level) bombing attacks, they should drop when the player drops, provided they are in formation. For Stukas, they should if above a certain height PROMPTLY dive-bomb nearest targets at the moment the order is given. In other circumstances and for other planes they should (again PROMPTLY) make suitable (eg 30 degree dive, bombing and strafing) attacks on the nearest ground target at the moment the order is given. At the moment, I have seen fighters respond as they should on occasion, but Stukas (and from what others have said, possibly Sturmoviks too?) are hopeless. They won't dive bomb and they won't make other types of attack either. If there is some magic technique which, if used, can get AI bombers to bomb and Stukas to dive bomb, it needs to be described, rather than players left floundering, trying to find it...if it exists, which I doubt.

 

- reduce straggling/improve formation-keeping. At the moment whether player or AI-led, even gentle turns seem to break up formations, for non-fighter aircraft especially.

Edited by 33lima

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My hopes:

 

FW190 handling/stall tweak

 

Campaign AI wingmen staying in formation until commanded to engage targets. This alone is ruining the campaign IMO, as it is forcing me to fly a completely different style. I would like to be able to identify threats at a distance, and actually be able to plan an attack or defense instead of having to go chasing my wingmen Into a straight on free for all attack every time. Or be able to skirt around far away threats and continue flying the mission without engaging. As i have experienced so far my wingmen always break off and engage any air target they come across and ignore all my commands to form up, do as me or return to mission.

 

I've stopped flying the "campaign",mostly because of this.  Your escorts are daft, the mission profile routes you over enemy airbases and flak every time, that rear gunner that took such a long grind to get is worthless.  And every once in a while, wouldn't it be nice to have local air superiority?  It's gotten tedious to approach the target, which is always covered by two 109 G2s, you have no escort left because they went off after the three Heinkels (or Stukas) that have 4 109 F4s escorting them, and they are all lost in that melee...  Then the Heinkels (or Stukas) decide to land at the airbase that always just happens to be right next to your target, so the 4 F4s join the 2 G2s.

 

It's madness.

 

There has to be a better way.

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What's wrong with the 190's stall characteristics?

 

Seems like unless the 190 turns like a zero, accelerates and has high speed performance of a modern day jet it will always be wrong.

 

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/192120-What-Cptn-Eric-Brown-%28really%29-wrote-about-the-Fw-190A-Forums

 

"Achilles Heel that the AFDU had sought with Armin Faber's Focke-Wulf was its harsh stalling characteristics which limited its manoeuvre margins."

 

"The stalling speed of the Fw 190A-4 in clean configuration was 127 mph (204 km/h) and the stall came suddenly and virtually without warning, the port wing dropping so violently that the aircraft almost inverted itself. In fact, if the German fighter was pulled into a g stall in a right turn, it would flick out into the opposite bank and an incipient spin was the inevitable outcome if the pilot did not have its wits about him."

Edited by FuriousMeow
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What's wrong with the 190's stall characteristics?

 

While it might not actually be the "stall" that is the issue being brought up with the 190, most people who have posted here on the forum agree that something is noticeably different about the way the 190 flies.  I am not sure what my opinion is on the problem itself, but I, as many others, notice that the plane is overly sensitive to fall out of the sky violently and with almost no time to counter the effects.  

 

Personally, if I attempt to describe it, it feels like there is a completely different curve for my joystick axis for the 190.  I feel as if I have to use half of the inputs I would normally use compared to say the 109-F4, or it will spin out of the sky.  It just seems overly sensitive compared to every other fighter in the game.  For me, the main problem I have is not with speeds around traditional stall range, but at speeds of 300-450.  If I attempt to do any sort of g turn or maneuver the plane plummets from the sky with little to no warning.  

 

I think most people are saying "stall" because it's the most obvious way to describe where the issue seems to be happening, but in reality it could be a completely different issue altogether.  It could be the AOA might be changing too fast for the joystick input or something like that, but it seems most people think there is something up with the handling, especially at higher speeds, that is unique to the FW190.  What is your opinion on the 190 as a whole, FuriousMeow, other than its documented stall data?

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The 190 in the old il2 had hair-trigger controls, too, I thought. Part of the fun. Fly in straight lines, roll to change direction, climb gradually, and turning is for girls. Wasn't that what people used to say for flying the 190?

 

Do you guys really think the Ju52 will be ready? I hope so but had just assumed it was still months away. No idea though.

 

Some improvements to AI management would be nice, but having played il2 and built missions I'm used to pretty much ignoring them and just assume I'll need to do whatever the objective is pretty much by myself. It'd be great if they could improve this area though.

 

Some kind of roadmap (with pics of WIP planes) would be great to reassure people, wouldnt it?

Really hope the game has survived the battering it has taken. There's so much good stuff in it.

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I am surprised no one has mentioned the Mission Editor yet. For the game to prosper it is more important than anything else.

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I am surprised no one has mentioned the Mission Editor yet. For the game to prosper it is more important than anything else.

 

 

:good:

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"The aileron maintained their lightness from the stall up to 400 mph (644km/h), although they heavied up above that speed. The elevators proved to be heavy at all speed and particularly so above 350 mph (563 km/h) when they became heavy enough to impose a tactical restriction on the fighter as regards pull-out from low-level dives. This heaviness was accentuated because of the nose-down pitch which occurred at high speeds when trimmed for low speeds. The critical speed at which this change in trim occurred was at around 220 mph (354 km/h) and could easily be gauged in turns. At lower speeds, the German fighter had a tendency to tighten up the turn and I found it necessary to apply slight forward pressure on the stick, but above the previously-mentioned critical figure, the changeover called for some backward pressure to hold the Focke-Wulf in the turn."

 

This sums up exactly how I feel the 190 in game. Especially the part about the trim transition.

 

@topic:

Really want the FMB, DServer and fix for the dumb AI that cant seem to do nothing properly. 

Edited by istruba

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I wonder if any feels similar flying Lagg-3 or LA5 in BOS what RL pilots could feel :

 

" Soviet pilots reported that the Lavochkin ( La-5 ) could stay with – but not overtake – an Fw 190 in horizontal flight at low altitude and their performance was similar,  when manoeuvring in the same plane. When chasing or evading an Fw 190 in a climb, the La-5 (which was half a ton lighter) enjoyed some advantage. However, its manoeuvrability at speeds in excess of 250mph left a lot to be desired in comparison with the Fw 190. Most pilots felt that the ailerons and elevators were particularly heavy when turning tightly at higher speeds and when exiting a dive. This in turn meant that only physically strong pilots could hope to get the best out of the early La-5s when engaging enemy fighters."

 

With service testing and combat experience having revealed numerous defects with the La-5, Lavochkin set about rectifying these problems with the follow-on La-5F of early 1943. Incorporating aerodynamic improvements, reduced weight (achieved by losing two of the five fuel tanks), reshaped and larger flight controls and a more powerful (and reliable) M-82F engine, the new fighter started to reach frontline units in March 1943. Engine reliability had been of great concern with the original La-5, as the M-82 had a tendency to suffer from spark plug failure and exhaust pipe burnthrough. The fighter’s boost system had also proven difficult to operate, as had the cowling side flaps – the engine routinely overheated as a result.  Although the improved La-5F allowed Soviet pilots to achieve parity with German fighters during the spring of 1943, Lavochkin was fully aware that more still needed to be done. For example, engine reliability was still not what it should have been, with the La-5 suffering a failure rate three times greater than its contemporaries in the VVS-KA at that time. Pilots were also finding the aircraft difficult to recover from inverted spins due to the heaviness of the controls. Indeed, frontline aviators continued to abandon La-5s in an inverted spin until they were shown how to recover the aircraft by Lavochkin test pilots. As previously mentioned, the fighter’s handling improved with the advent of the La-5F thanks to the fitment of larger flying surfaces.

 

 

Resuming La5 and Lagg-3 was known from not good control harmony also not good roll rate -  quite opposite what we got in BOS actually.   It was change although with La5 F series which got improved controls.  In BOS La5 actually feels more like La5 F with improved controls.

 

But i highly doubt it would be changed in BOS. Han mention that they got data for La5 F and they made FM for La5 based on these raports with some changes but it looks that these changes were not adequatly done.

Edited by Kwiatek
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I agree with people that the Fw 190 'feels' different when flown to the limit, but I don't get why that is a problem. All other aircraft in BoS have a wing loading in the same ballpark 160 - 180 kg/m2. The 190 stands at more than 230 kg/m2, that's a MASSIVE difference, and it doesn't even have the automatic slats to help in high AoA situations like the 109 (which is the plane that comes closest in terms of wingloading)

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Really want the FMB, DServer and fix for the dumb AI that cant seem to do nothing properly. 

 

Add gunners to AI list.

 

He 111, Ju-87, Pe-2 gunners dont shoot at il-2 (QM)

Pe-2 gunners don't shoot at Bf 109 G-2 (Chir Front missions).

 

Before "add new planes and etc." are many things to fix.

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I agree with people that the Fw 190 'feels' different when flown to the limit, but I don't get why that is a problem. All other aircraft in BoS have a wing loading in the same ballpark 160 - 180 kg/m2. The 190 stands at more than 230 kg/m2, that's a MASSIVE difference, and it doesn't even have the automatic slats to help in high AoA situations like the 109 (which is the plane that comes closest in terms of wingloading)

Personally i wouldnt mind if the tradeoffs would "buy" something. But as is this plane does nothing well! It doesnt roll fast. It doesnt fly fast. It isnt very maneuverable at high speeds. And so on. So please tell me what do all this tradeoffs buy me as a fighter pilot?

I cannot believe the RLM would have invested in the development/production of a plane that compares to all the other "current players" like the BOS FW 190 actually does compared to the 109 and the russian fighters we have.

Edited by VSG1_Winger

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As someone just getting my feet wet in BoS (I fly a lot of Cliffs of Dover w/TF updates) the two things I miss most (and I DON"T want to turn this into a comparision fight) are the FMB and the ability to host my own online missions. My squad is interested in flying this on a regular basis, but if we can't host our own online training and familiarization missions, it's kind of a deal breaker. Flying on the regular servers is fun, but if I just want to get to know my way around a particular plane and share what I've learned in real time with a squad mate (or learn from him), I want a non-combat environment to do that in.

I also have always been a fan of co-op style missions, and that's kind of a non-starter with BoS, so far.

If the developers wish to continue to attract new players, I think these are both priority items.

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Personally i wouldnt mind if the tradeoffs would "buy" something. But as is this plane does nothing well! It doesnt roll fast. It doesnt fly fast. It isnt very maneuverable at high speeds. And so on. So please tell me what do all this tradeoffs buy me as a fighter pilot?

I cannot believe the RLM would have invested in the development/production of a plane that compares to all the other "current players" like the BOS FW 190 actually does compared to the 109 and the russian fighters we have.

 

Well...

 

I agree that the Fw 190 in BoS is still not perfect FM-wise. IMHO it still underperforms in level speed and accelleration compared to what I'd expect. However, I think its handling is more or less spot on (more so than the other fighters, I'd like for their controls to stiffen up at high speed the way the 190s does so realistically.)

 

Even with the lower performance, in BoS I think it's easy to see the qualities, that made the Fw 190 so beloved and feared.

 

Here's basically what you get in return for the outrageous wingloading:

 

1. You get extremely powerful armament for that time with loads of ammunition only rivaled much later by other planes. Also a lot bigger payload overall giving better range and more versatility.

 

2. You get a very stable gun platform to fire those guns from.

 

3. You get a very good view from the cockpit, especially since the BoS Fw 190 flies in the correct nose-down attitude. (we experience the view less in the sim, since we tend to keep our virtual head more stationary, and there's no refraction modelled) 

 

4. You get very smooth, well balanced controls and pleasant flight characteristics within the planes flight envelope. This is what was really missing from some other sims' attempts at the Würger. If you don't press it beyond its limits (which a real life combat pilot would very seldom do) the Fw 190 actually flies great and takes a lot less effort to keep steady than the 109.

 

5. You get easy-to-manage engine controls that leaves the pilot with optimal performance with minimum effort. This only seems like no big deal, because you get basically the same from the 109.

 

6. You get a somewhat more sturdy design with greater survivability (keeping in mind, that all fighter aircraft are basically thin alluminium cans filled with explosives and volatile fuel) This is hard to notice in a sim, where your opponents mostly fire very rapid fire 20mm autocannon or rifle caliber guns that spew out 30 bullets per second, but in BoS the 190 really is relatively tough. Try going up gainst the 190 and the 109 in the Yak using only the ShKAS MGs and compare.

 

All these qualities are present in BoS.

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I do notice in the 190 when you apply down elevator at speed you go into a violent spin most times . Meanwhile the Yak has almost zero stall anywhere .

Edited by 6969pencon

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I do notice in the 190 when you apply down elevator at speed you go into a violent spin most times . Meanwhile the Yak has almost zero stall anywhere .

That's because the Fw 190s elevator is a lot more effective than the Yaks, making it much easier to push it beyond stall.
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Threatening this thread to turn into another endless Fw 190 discussion and rage thread I'll post my observations and impressions about the current FM.

 

The 190 feels still quite off and - to be honest - the recently launched module made it worse to me. I encountered weird instant snap stalls at dive angles or strange stalls that blocked all contorlls and made the plane fly straight wobbling left and right like a pendulum.

 

It's definetly an issue with the "stall at high AoA program" (whatever this is) and considering this is the first literation of it changes are highly expectable and nessecary.

 

Now let's talk about ground handling. With locked tailwheel it feels alright, once it's unlocked the horror begins. I've testes taxiing straight with locked tailwheel down the taxiway at no windy conditions, cutting off power and letting the wheel slowly unlock. The result was an instant ground loop once the tailwheel unlocked.

 

This issue probably relates to different causes. Wrong set CoG, false inertia simulation ect. With the wide gear the Fw 190 has it assumably - as it was reported by pilots - easy to taxi around corners since the wide gear requires a stronger momentum to rotate, ie it should be more stable to taxi.

Curiously the 109 with it's small gear taxies stable and (assumably) natural with unlocked tailwheel. If you handle your throttle and brakes carefully you can taxi to the runway nonstop with unlocked tailwheel.

 

Than there's a non linear throttle output ranging from 1.2 ata to 1.4. It's not as bad as on the G-2 but annoying if you want to adjust your power settings precisely in the upper range.

 

The rudder - just like on the 109 - inducts a higher roll than bank momentum. Try to slip it during final approach and you'll see it behaves unexpectably odd. It's also negatively effecting it's stability during manouvering and shooting.

 

Of course there are other aircrafts with obvious issues (see my last post) that need fixing for a long time now. Still any discussion about FM bugs and oddities always finds it's way to the Fw 190 because it combines the most obvious oddities.

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Well...

 

I agree that the Fw 190 in BoS is still not perfect FM-wise. IMHO it still underperforms in level speed and accelleration compared to what I'd expect. However, I think its handling is more or less spot on (more so than the other fighters, I'd like for their controls to stiffen up at high speed the way the 190s does so realistically.)

 

Even with the lower performance, in BoS I think it's easy to see the qualities, that made the Fw 190 so beloved and feared.

 

Here's basically what you get in return for the outrageous wingloading:

 

1. You get extremely powerful armament for that time with loads of ammunition only rivaled much later by other planes. Also a lot bigger payload overall giving better range and more versatility.

 

2. You get a very stable gun platform to fire those guns from.

 

3. You get a very good view from the cockpit, especially since the BoS Fw 190 flies in the correct nose-down attitude. (we experience the view less in the sim, since we tend to keep our virtual head more stationary, and there's no refraction modelled)

 

4. You get very smooth, well balanced controls and pleasant flight characteristics within the planes flight envelope. This is what was really missing from some other sims' attempts at the Würger. If you don't press it beyond its limits (which a real life combat pilot would very seldom do) the Fw 190 actually flies great and takes a lot less effort to keep steady than the 109.

 

5. You get easy-to-manage engine controls that leaves the pilot with optimal performance with minimum effort. This only seems like no big deal, because you get basically the same from the 109.

 

6. You get a somewhat more sturdy design with greater survivability (keeping in mind, that all fighter aircraft are basically thin alluminium cans filled with explosives and volatile fuel) This is hard to notice in a sim, where your opponents mostly fire very rapid fire 20mm autocannon or rifle caliber guns that spew out 30 bullets per second, but in BoS the 190 really is relatively tough. Try going up gainst the 190 and the 109 in the Yak using only the ShKAS MGs and compare.

 

All these qualities are present in BoS.

1. right now i could just put some pods under the 109 and still have a better performing plane than the 2 x20mm FW.

2. the 109 offers just that stability and the gun is extremely accurate. Afaik the russian guns even have lower dispersion over time. But thats just what i read a while ago.

3. view left and right is good. Back is junk since at all times the headrest is in the way and cannot be passed by since the glass is too close and the headmovement is too restricted. No clue if thats what it was like in the real thing. View front sucks due to the still too thick visible metalbrackets that hold the panzerglas. The real thing didnt have that visibilityissue due to refraction. I have no clue why the devs dont delete that. Absolutely no point!!! The visibility overall in the f4 is faaaaaar superior to the front, front down and back. On top of that comes the strong layer of "dust" on the front glass. Thats no issue at daytime but as soon as it gets dark you cant practically see anythhing out front.

4. agreed its smooth. But too slow and about the how ineffective the elevator gets above 450 kph we dont need to talk i think.

Ok the adj. Stab saves that but is the stiffness correct? I doubt it.

5. agreed. Just like the 109. then again the absence of effect of mixture influences on performance i read of does negate this argument partially imo.

6. agreed its sturdier than the 109 . Just like it really was from what i read and heard.

 

I am not impatient. But i really see no reason why the performance doenst get corrected for this plane. I asked in the questions thread on how far the a3 is considered final fm wise from the devs. No response. I really would love to just know if i can keep my hopes up or just go ahead and dump it and go 109 until we get new types.

 

Oh and about the missing response on my fm question ..there might be hope since its not too long ago i asked and tey are still in holidays. So: enjoy your well earned time off devs!!!;)

Edited by VSG1_Winger

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Now let's talk about ground handling. With locked tailwheel it feels alright, once it's unlocked the horror begins. I've testes taxiing straight with locked tailwheel down the taxiway at no windy conditions, cutting off power and letting the wheel slowly unlock. The result was an instant ground loop once the tailwheel unlocked.

 

This issue probably relates to different causes. Wrong set CoG, false inertia simulation ect. With the wide gear the Fw 190 has it assumably - as it was reported by pilots - easy to taxi around corners since the wide gear requires a stronger momentum to rotate, ie it should be more stable to taxi.

Curiously the 109 with it's small gear taxies stable and (assumably) natural with unlocked tailwheel. If you handle your throttle and brakes carefully you can taxi to the runway nonstop with unlocked tailwheel.

 

S!

 

Fully agree about the Fw 190 part. If I may compare it to the D-9 in that other sim, it feels quite similar with locked tail wheel. With unlocked tail wheel the D-9 becomes a bit harder to taxi too, but nothing close to IL2 BoS. I know, that I'm comparing to different versions A and D and that they will handle a bit different.

 

For me the G-2 is a horror to taxi, sometimes it doesn't want to turn right, even with prop pitch at 12 o'clock, right rudder + break and unlocked tail wheel. Most of the times unlocking the tail wheel and 12 o'clock pitch does the trick, but if you aren't extremely careful I will just spin around. The F-4 is a bit easier and I agree it can be taxied without unlocking the tail wheel.

 

I would love to see some improvements in ground handling, I can't believe (yet I have never flown these planes of course) that the would spin so easily.

 

It may be a l2p issue on my hand. Are there any guides on the forum for ground handling the planes, like which RPM is best and if you should unlock the tail wheel or not? That other sim gave you clear instruction on which RPM you should set your engine to taxi safely and whether to use breaks or rudder.

 

Zettman

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1. right now i could just put some pods under the 109 and still have a better performing plane than the 2 x20mm FW.

2. the 109 offers just that stability and the gun is extremely accurate. Afaik the russian guns even have lower dispersion over time. But thats just what i read a while ago.

3. view left and right is good. Back is junk since at all times the headrest is in the way and cannot be passed by since the glass is too close and the headmovement is too restricted. No clue if thats what it was like in the real thing. View front sucks due to the still too thick visible metalbrackets that hold the panzerglas. The real thing didnt have that visibilityissue due to refraction. I have no clue why the devs dont delete that. Absolutely no point!!! The visibility overall in the f4 is faaaaaar superior to the front, front down and back. On top of that comes the strong layer of "dust" on the front glass. Thats no issue at daytime but as soon as it gets dark you cant practically see anythhing out front.

4. agreed its smooth. But too slow and about the how ineffective the elevator gets above 450 kph we dont need to talk i think.

Ok the adj. Stab saves that but is the stiffness correct? I doubt it.

5. agreed. Just like the 109. then again the absence of effect of mixture influences on performance i read of does negate this argument partially imo.

6. agreed its sturdier than the 109 . Just like it really was from what i read and heard.

 

I am not impatient. But i really see no reason why the performance doenst get corrected for this plane. I asked in the questions thread on how far the a3 is considered final fm wise from the devs. No response. I really would love to just know if i can keep my hopes up or just go ahead and dump it and go 109 until we get new types.

 

Oh and about the missing response on my fm question ..there might be hope since its not too long ago i asked and tey are still in holidays. So: enjoy your well earned time off devs!!! ;)

 

 

I suspect the 190 probably has the most accurate FM of any aircraft in the game.  I'm not suggesting it's perfect by any means, (and I'm certainly looking forward to any tuning that may yet be coming our way) but it's certainly well within the ball park of respectability as it is right now.  When the aircraft is flown correctly( and by that I mean, when it is handled properly and appropriate tactics are employed), it is at least as good as any other fighter  - Russian or German, in the sim.

 

So, if you're experiencing handling difficulties (stalls etc) it isn't because the FM is wrong, it's because you aren't flying the thing properly.  You must forget about conventional elevator turns when dog fighting in the 190 and use your ailerons instead.   That's not as simple as it sounds and to do it effectively, you must practice a lot.  If you've actually tried substituting ailerons for your elevators and it still doesn't work, it isn't because there's a problem with the FM, it's because you're still not doing it correctly.  Go back into SP and practice some more.

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Sorry Wulf, but I'm tired of the old "learn to fly" thing.

 

There are serious issues with the FMs in BoS, both in the air and with the ground handling.

 

Just because you can learn to fly "around" or "through" the issue does not mean it's correct.

 

We are back at the bogus argument that simmers always use... "harder is more real" and that is utter nonsense.

 

There is a global instability issue at play here, and it affects every plane in the sim, in the air and on the taxiway.   Too many people that have been at this for too many years, many with real flying experience, are not all wrong about this.

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Well it is kind of like racing sim.... It is harder than real life because you don't not get all the real life forces and feedback... Harder to judge limits and easier to make mistake in some case...

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Extreme g-forces in real life are way harder to manage then the blacking out in game. Also control stiffeness. IRL your body is (was) Completely f*cked after 3 or 4 dogfights in one Day, damaged brain, damaged muscles

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No I mean as in the tendency to over control the plane.... It might feel strange since it is not real.life and real forces on you and the stick...

 

But improvement.in any game.can always be made

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I suspect the 190 probably has the most accurate FM of any aircraft in the game.  I'm not suggesting it's perfect by any means, (and I'm certainly looking forward to any tuning that may yet be coming our way) but it's certainly well within the ball park of respectability as it is right now.  When the aircraft is flown correctly( and by that I mean, when it is handled properly and appropriate tactics are employed), it is at least as good as any other fighter  - Russian or German, in the sim.

 

So, if you're experiencing handling difficulties (stalls etc) it isn't because the FM is wrong, it's because you aren't flying the thing properly.  You must forget about conventional elevator turns when dog fighting in the 190 and use your ailerons instead.   That's not as simple as it sounds and to do it effectively, you must practice a lot.  If you've actually tried substituting ailerons for your elevators and it still doesn't work, it isn't because there's a problem with the FM, it's because you're still not doing it correctly.  Go back into SP and practice some more.

 

I'm going to avoid the FM issue for now because I've spoken my peace for the time being.

 

I'll make one exception, however -- planes stall too easily from bunting maneuvers. I only mention this because it was brought up in this thread and I've never commented on it.

 

If you stall out from bunting, especially at any sort of fight-type airspeed, you should have "red-out" well before that. Or hit your head incredibly hard on the canopy. Or find some other way to simulate the pilot being EXTREMELY uncomfortable. Negative Gs are not fun. It just seems as if there's too much nose-down control authority currently.

 

Next, I wanted to add to the whole "ailerons to turn" thing. The 190 obviously had an oustanding rate-of-roll; history remembers this quite well. However, telling people to use ailerons to turn is a bit misleading.

 

You don't turn with ailerons. Ailerons are used to set your lift vector. Faster rolling means setting your lift vector faster. That's it.

 

Offensively, you can set your LV on the bandit faster with a faster rate-of-roll. When in the vertical, this can be particularly effective, for reasons we're all aware of. But, again, once the LV is set, elevators accomplish any sort of actual turn.

 

Defensively, well...you're all aware of what a fast rate-of-roll can accomplish. No need to elaborate.

 

Let's stop this nonsense of "turn with your ailerons." People just keep repeating this without thinking about what it actually means. It means nothing.

 

Roll, set your LV, and pull. The 190 favors an energy gaining or sustaining type pull to effectively keep an energy advantage. Early turn circle entries (aka pulling across the turn circle) facilitate shots against superior turning bandits, at the expense of higher angles of deflection and a fleeting "snap" shot.

 

And just to clear up any "but wait!" moments out there -- BnZ against a maneuvering target is simply an early turn circle entry as described above, performed out of plane (i.e. in 3 dimensions) rather than maneuvering in the same plane of motion as the bandit.

 

TL;DR version: rather than saying "use ailerons to turn," say "use your superior roll rate to set your lift vector quickly, and pull in an energy sustaining manner across the turn circle to achieve a shot of moderate to high deflection, relying on your superior firepower to kill the bandit. Whether or not you're successful, then use your stored energy to climb out of the bandit's gun WEZ."

 

Then you'd really impress the members of the forum ;).

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I haven't flown the sim in a while, and the FW even less, but I wonder if fighting the 190 in BoS is similar-ish to fighting it in IL2:1946, especially online i.e., note great to df alone but with a wingman, a completely different - and much deadlier - animal.

 

Good hunting,

CFC_Conky

 

P.S.

 

"TL;DR version: rather than saying "use ailerons to turn," say "use your superior roll rate to set your lift vector quickly, and pull in an energy sustaining manner across the turn circle to achieve a shot of moderate to high deflection, relying on your superior firepower to kill the bandit. Whether or not you're successful, then use your stored energy to climb out of the bandit's gun WEZ."

 

Best...decscription....ever Prefontaine!  :cool: 

Edited by CFC_Conky

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I suspect the 190 probably has the most accurate FM of any aircraft in the game.  I'm not suggesting it's perfect by any means, (and I'm certainly looking forward to any tuning that may yet be coming our way) but it's certainly well within the ball park of respectability as it is right now.  When the aircraft is flown correctly( and by that I mean, when it is handled properly and appropriate tactics are employed), it is at least as good as any other fighter  - Russian or German, in the sim.   So, if you're experiencing handling difficulties (stalls etc) it isn't because the FM is wrong, it's because you aren't flying the thing properly.  You must forget about conventional elevator turns when dog fighting in the 190 and use your ailerons instead.   That's not as simple as it sounds and to do it effectively, you must practice a lot.  If you've actually tried substituting ailerons for your elevators and it still doesn't work, it isn't because there's a problem with the FM, it's because you're still not doing it correctly.  Go back into SP and practice some more.

 

+1 Wulf  :salute:

 

I'm quite sucessfull flying the 190 online, hardly I get shot down in it and I also find it to be one of the most accurate FM of BoS (any up coming fix is welcome though).

 

But one thing I have to agree with Prefontaine: about the bunts, and the over control on negative G moves. I rarely red-out flying on BoS. But its not exclusive to the 190, it affects all planes on bos, but it can be more severe on 190 (the flick roll thingy), until its fixed, it can easily be avoided with light input/hand controls on the stick.

Edited by istruba

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I suspect the 190 probably has the most accurate FM of any aircraft in the game. I'm not suggesting it's perfect by any means, (and I'm certainly looking forward to any tuning that may yet be coming our way) but it's certainly well within the ball park of respectability as it is right now. When the aircraft is flown correctly( and by that I mean, when it is handled properly and appropriate tactics are employed), it is at least as good as any other fighter - Russian or German, in the sim.

 

So, if you're experiencing handling difficulties (stalls etc) it isn't because the FM is wrong, it's because you aren't flying the thing properly. You must forget about conventional elevator turns when dog fighting in the 190 and use your ailerons instead. That's not as simple as it sounds and to do it effectively, you must practice a lot. If you've actually tried substituting ailerons for your elevators and it still doesn't work, it isn't because there's a problem with the FM, it's because you're still not doing it correctly. Go back into SP and practice some more.

Believe me. I know how to fly the focke and how to apply proper bnz tactics. I know its no tnb plane. If i want to tnb i go rof and get into a dr1, pub or camel;). Also if you are online at european peaktimes youll see that i get around pretty well. Its not that i cannot be successful in this plane as stated before in another thread. Its just about the plane not performing well if compared to the other planes. I could repeat my RLM argument i stated a little earlier in this thread... Edited by VSG1_Winger

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I'm going to avoid the FM issue for now because I've spoken my peace for the time being.

 

I'll make one exception, however -- planes stall too easily from bunting maneuvers. I only mention this because it was brought up in this thread and I've never commented on it.

 

If you stall out from bunting, especially at any sort of fight-type airspeed, you should have "red-out" well before that. Or hit your head incredibly hard on the canopy. Or find some other way to simulate the pilot being EXTREMELY uncomfortable. Negative Gs are not fun. It just seems as if there's too much nose-down control authority currently.

 

Next, I wanted to add to the whole "ailerons to turn" thing. The 190 obviously had an oustanding rate-of-roll; history remembers this quite well. However, telling people to use ailerons to turn is a bit misleading.

 

You don't turn with ailerons. Ailerons are used to set your lift vector. Faster rolling means setting your lift vector faster. That's it.

 

Offensively, you can set your LV on the bandit faster with a faster rate-of-roll. When in the vertical, this can be particularly effective, for reasons we're all aware of. But, again, once the LV is set, elevators accomplish any sort of actual turn.

 

Defensively, well...you're all aware of what a fast rate-of-roll can accomplish. No need to elaborate.

 

Let's stop this nonsense of "turn with your ailerons." People just keep repeating this without thinking about what it actually means. It means nothing.

 

Roll, set your LV, and pull. The 190 favors an energy gaining or sustaining type pull to effectively keep an energy advantage. Early turn circle entries (aka pulling across the turn circle) facilitate shots against superior turning bandits, at the expense of higher angles of deflection and a fleeting "snap" shot.

 

And just to clear up any "but wait!" moments out there -- BnZ against a maneuvering target is simply an early turn circle entry as described above, performed out of plane (i.e. in 3 dimensions) rather than maneuvering in the same plane of motion as the bandit.

 

TL;DR version: rather than saying "use ailerons to turn," say "use your superior roll rate to set your lift vector quickly, and pull in an energy sustaining manner across the turn circle to achieve a shot of moderate to high deflection, relying on your superior firepower to kill the bandit. Whether or not you're successful, then use your stored energy to climb out of the bandit's gun WEZ."

 

Then you'd really impress the members of the forum ;).

 

Okay, you're right in what you say to the extent that just saying "use your ailerons not your elevators" is really shorthand for saying 'use your 'rons to change your lift vector - then apply some elevator' - true (although, even that is a gross over simplification of what is actually going on). But this has all been stated before on this forum, in fact, by me to be exact. But yes, if you want to succeed in a 190 you have to learn to use your ailerons (that is, your roll advantage; small as it is) to alter your lift vector before initiating a change of direction (with your elevators), because, at the point where you're actually entering into a sustained turn with an enemy, and you get down to 'corner speed', as you invariably will, every other fighter in the sim will out perform you in a horizontal turn.  So to me, at least, when someone says they're always stalling-out in their 190s, that tends to strongly suggest just one thing; that they're trying to 'out-turn' their opponent and in the process they're falling out of the sky.   And it isn't a cop-out to say you have to fly the thing correctly to succeed in it.  The fact is, that although the 190 is sufficiently nimble that you can actually out-fly anything else in the sim, you can't do that if you fly the thing as if it were a Yak.  There may also be some sort of 'negative G issue' (I don't really know but that's what some people say) but as I don't 'bunt' in the thing I cant really comment (as far as I'm concerned, bunting is something you do in a 109 when you've got a Spitfire on your tail that doesn't have a negative G carb installed - you don't have to do it in a 190.  If I notice something getting behind me when in a 190, I 'change my lift vector - then apply some elevator'  (which in some instances may end up as a split-S).  But I don't bunt.  Anyway, my point in all of this is: if you're having trouble flying an aircraft that other people fly quite successfully, maybe the first thing you should do, before complaining, is to find out whether, just maybe, you're doing something wrong. 

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Campaign AI wingmen staying in formation until commanded to engage targets.

 

Just so every one does know, if you give the "return to mission" command when your AI flight diverges from you, they will return to formation. They are too eager to go for the enemy and have to be restrained  ;)

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That Fw 190 thread disguised.  :biggrin:

 

My biggest problem with this plane is not the FM, but the front view... those bars...

 

About the FM, the only thing i have doubts is the horrible controls stiffening which start a bit before 600kph... but it may be correct, i'm not a expert.

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