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Flight dynamics after the latest patches...

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No, this is not what we see ingame. What we see is, that you can hardly change your pitch altitude at all.

 

Also, if a high wing load causes a superior instantaneous turn performancethen a lower wing load must cause a slower instanttaneous turn performance, which the Yak doesn't have.

 

 

EDIT: If you want to to test it, I volunteer in a Yak (behind you) and you can try to escape in the 190 with it's famous roll rate and superior instantaneous turn performance (due to the high wing loading). I bet you cannot exploit these features, which you should be able to... (Don't want to be offending though).

Sure I think I can do some testing it tonight, I'll PM you when I get home, hard to compare fighters like this when you play alone most of the time  :biggrin:

 

And I don't worry, I don't get offended that easily even if I'm wrong I've only learned something then :salute:

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No, this is not what we see ingame. What we see is, that you can hardly change your pitch altitude at all.

 

Also, if a high wing load causes a superior instantaneous turn performancethen a lower wing load must cause a slower instanttaneous turn performance, which the Yak doesn't have.

 

 

EDIT: If you want to to test it, I volunteer in a Yak (behind you) and you can try to escape in the 190 with it's famous roll rate and superior instantaneous turn performance (due to the high wing loading). I bet you cannot exploit these features, which you should be able to... (Don't want to be offending though).

Hah id love to see a video. Id bet my money the 190 cant shake ANYTHING in game with its *peep* rollrate.

 

Please make a track.

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Sure I think I can do some testing it tonight, I'll PM you when I get home, hard to compare fighters like this when you play alone most of the time  :biggrin:

 

And I don't worry, I don't get offended that easily even if I'm wrong I've only learned something then :salute:

On anther though it will probably be hard to pitch down faster than the Yak in the FW as both can redout with negative pitch and that should be the limiting factor if I'm correct. Might be possible at higher speeds but the Yak has very good and easy handing. Will be interesting  :)

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Hah id love to see a video. Id bet my money the 190 cant shake ANYTHING in game with its *peep* rollrate. Please make a track.

 

It sure can, it all depends on the situation, speed of the aircrafts and most of all, the pilot flying those. I do feel that the 190 have an advantage in roll rates over the russian fighters, except the the la5, which, to me, they seems to have almost the same roll rate, but it was already discussed in other topic; it appears that the la5 have an excellent roll rate in the beggining phases of the roll, while the 190 is a tiny little bit slower to start to roll, but if you sustain that roll it will be faster than any plane in BoS.

 

But I do agree, that I find that superiority in roll rate of the 190 very very slim against russian fighters (generally speaking), and only good pilots can fully exploit that.

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Purely anecdotal... I was able to employ rolling scissors through out the weekend with some decent effect though I have no idea how good the guys that I was flying against. Of course I also used the FWs speed and most people gave up. It was also interesting to see that I could use climb after a certain amount of separation. Yaks just couldn't follow me after getting out of the Weapons range I could zoom climb them and most that followed fell out of the sky.

 

In terms of instantaneous turn I didn't note very much in the FW compared with other sims. Most of my attacks were slashing boom and zoom stuff which is what the FW does well. I felt that the high speed cement elevator prevented a lot of good shooting opportunities. I had to plan around the problem to get the FW to perform.

 

A long sustained turn fight is the death of the FW.

Edited by 14./JG5CaptStubing

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Purely anecdotal... I was able to employ rolling scissors through out the weekend with some decent effect though I have no idea how good the guys that I was flying against. Of course I also used the FWs speed and most people gave up. It was also interesting to see that I could use climb after a certain amount of separation. Yaks just couldn't follow me after getting out of the Weapons range I could zoom climb them and most that followed fell out of the sky.

 

In terms of instantaneous turn I didn't note very much in the FW compared with other sims. Most of my attacks were slashing boom and zoom stuff which is what the FW does well. I felt that the high speed cement elevator prevented a lot of good shooting opportunities. I had to plan around the problem to get the FW to perform.

 

A long sustained turn fight is the death of the FW.

 

I agree with your tactics and also admit that the 190 can cause some damage flown this way!

 

The scissors are an evasive maneuver for the 190, and if (and I say IF) the introduction of the rollrate is too low + the elevator cannot pulled sufficiently then it becomes worthless. Well, Penshoon nicely pm'ed me and we want to do a test and practise. We will see whether the reason is my limited abilities or something else. I will report :salute:  And maybe there are others who want to give it a try. Take a partner in a Yak, put it on your six, no shooting and then try to escape with a scissors maneuver in the 190. Would be interessting to hear (and see) your experiences.

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The Yaks don't exactly have a light wing loading either, but in any case if you want to engage in a standard type old school turn fight, the FW should never be your first choice.

If you do you are playing into your opponents biggest strength.

 

One thing I learned flying Japanese planes for so long in '46, is that most virtual pilots have no idea about what extending really means, nor are they good judges of their own energy state, much less their opponent's.

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that most virtual pilots have no idea about what extending really means, nor are they good judges of their own energy state, much less their opponent's.

 

+1 BlitzPig, what you said is critical for flying pretty much any plane, let alone the 190. Everytime I get rekt its because either I got impatient and wasted to much energy or misjudged the energy state of my enemy, leaving no room for extending. One thing that I love to do is baiting russian planes who think they got the E-advantage into a hammerhead and they stall out, leaving then defenseless while you dive upon them.

Edited by istruba

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Hah id love to see a video. Id bet my money the 190 cant shake ANYTHING in game with its *peep* rollrate.

 

Please make a track.

Sorry, no video, to summarize: me in a FW and Manfred in a Yak on the DED acrobatics server, staring from same alt, same speed around 1500m and him close behind I had no chance to shaking him by simply pitching and trying gain separation, resulted in stall after stall.

More attempts followed where I tried to use the roll of the FW but quickly found myself on low speed and again back to stall stall stall until I spun into the ground. :dash:  Constant use of rudder + elevators and ailerons to try to keep it coordinated while trying to get him to overshoot and move behind him but still couldn't manage to do it smoothly at all. Any defensive maneuver I've done practice on in free flight got very messy in a multiplayer situation with him on my tail, I think I'm a bit used to be able maneuver on slower speed as I usually fly a Yak or 109 in multiplayer. It just shows how much easier it is to fly a Yak in this situation and how hard it is to do the same in the FW.  I was beaten.  :sleep:​ 

 

Anyways thanks for the flight Manfred, see you another time, I need more practice  :salute:

Edited by =LD=Penshoon
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I want to add that Penshoon did a very good job. At one test, while he was performing scissors in a barrel roll, it was a little bit trickier for me to follow him. But in the end he bleeded so much energy for this maneuver that the 190 fall out of sky almost on it's own.  This says nothing about Penshoon, we changed planes several times and I didn't do any better in the 190. Nevertheless, if any one else want to give it a try, I'm still ready to volunteer.

 

...at least I probably found a new friend! :):salute:

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Thats exactly what i would have expected and experienced myself more than one time myself. And i know how to fly scissors;) i grew into flightsims with rof;) and rof without scissors is not possible;)

The rollrate and agility of the fw simply sucks and no real pilot would have judged the abilities of the fw like they did if it would have compared to other fighters of the era like it does here in bos. NO WAY. I think we have someone more now agreeing with that? Penshoon?;)

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I want to thank the people that were and are involved in testing the FW-190 against Russian fighters. Their testing makes the point that in the Battle of Stalingrad the FW-190 is inferior to Russian fighters. The FW-190 also has severe limitations built into its flight model that did not exist in reality. In fact the FW-190 was the superior fighter on the Eastern front, especially during the time period of the Battle of Stalingrad.

 

The book I quoted from earlier was written by a Russian historian who is an expert on Soviet aviation in World War II and by a retired Russian Air Force Col. I will quote again there description of the FW-190. "For the Russian front the FW-190 was to prove the ideal machine, combining ruggedness with maneuverability and stability". "In short, a superb dog fighter - in all but the tightest horizontal turns - an excellent gun platform".

 

I hope that the information and data provided in this form will motivate the developers to make significant changes. If they do, I believe they will have a higher level of acceptance in the aircraft simulator community.

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I must say that i was trying to fly Fw 190 online last times but i think i will give up these plane.  Before these update i was at least could do some scissor fight with russian planes,  now it is ususally spin fight.  Flying Fw 190 is continously pain for its pilot.  109 is far much easier and effectivness against russian planes.  Even controls in BOS 109 are much better harmonized then A-3.

 

BOS A-3 for me has definitly problem with trim positon of horizontal stabilizer. With "0" postion which IRL mean +2 deg positive angle of horizontal stab Fw 190 should fly slighty nose down at cruise speed.   In BOS you need trim very heavy nose down to get the same effect  + 3 on the trim guage.  So with +3 on trim guage ( +65%) elevator is more better for spin proof manouvers but other hand is too bad for higher speed flying.  Setting little less nose heavy ( +30%) about +2 deg  casue too light elevator at slower speed and spins circues beging.

 

I think comparing to 109 and other planes Fw 190  controls are not harmonized like it was said in FW 190 combat reports.

 

Actually flying Fw 190 in BOS is for masochists only

Edited by Kwiatek

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In your eagerness you missed to explain, what is wrong then. What wrong behaviour do you see ? This : "...but SHOULDN'T be able to?" is nonsense. Of course you can. But there are reasons I don´t do it in RL as in BoS.

 

There must be a language barrier here.

 

Let's start by getting back to the basics. Why, both in the game and in real life, do you steadily increase power? What are the consequences if you don't do so?

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Let's start by getting back to the basics. Why, both in the game and in real life, do you steadily increase power? What are the consequences if you don't do so?

 

Maybe because in real life he values his life and if he breaks the plane he'll have to pay thousands of money, while in BoS if you screw up you just hit restart. 

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Maybe because in real life he values his life and if he breaks the plane he'll have to pay thousands of money, while in BoS if you screw up you just hit restart. 

 

Please don't sidetrack the point I'm trying to make with comments like this.

 

If it wasn't clear, by "consequences," I meant the physical consequences on the aircraft. As in, what is going to happen to it. As in, the physical details of exactly what is going to happen.

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The common belief is that this is because aircraft lack "inertia" or weight, and are behaving like WWI aircraft. Again, this is just a simple convention people are using to describe the effect; who knows what's really causing it, it's just something with the FMs at the moment.

 

 

 

 

Yes, that's what I meant when I used that language.

 

Just started flying the IL2 today. Wow, that thing yaw wobbles like mad. It was designed as a ground attack aircraft and has a large tail surface. I imagine you should almost be able to walk your fire onto targets with rudder alone when flying level.

 

Like a broadside run on a column. You should be able to walk fire onto 2 or 3 in a shallow dive. Right now it's all over the place.

Edited by CDN-SMOKEJUMPER

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I felt the yaw was crazy with my force 3d pro (cheap ass joystick) but really I just calibrated my wrist. ;)

 

Really though.... Sometimes I even completely let go because my hand will rest with a tendency to yaw

Many of these aircraft need very small correction... Especially hard considering no force feedback

Edited by 361fundahl

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BOS-Jcomm said: On this same subject of the overall physics modeling in BoS, and bringing the discussion "further down" :rolleyes: to the ground, and since I started ( finally ! ) playing Rise of Flight, I noticed how important it is to give some bursts of throttle to keep the directional control of most ww1 birds at the end of the landing rollout, if we do not want to get the tail going nuts and trying to get ahead of the nose ....

 

Then, I picked the LagG3 and the La5 in il-2 BoS, landed both, made constant rudder corrections while I had still a bit of speed during the rollouts, and as soon as I got slower, where usually the ground loops start to happen, I decided to do the same - and know what ? I was able to bring the aircraft to a stop straight as an arrow !

Which demonstrates what I have said more than a few times, BoS has too much RoF in it's flight modeling. The global physics model still "thinks" it is controlling super light stick and canvas kites.

Actually it demonstrates that you need air going around the rudder for it to have authority. On a taildragger this is especially important on the ground. When you lose airspeed after landing you start to lose rudder authority so you must maintain it by using the prop to keep air flowing around your rudder. Using the prop to keep air around the rudder involves you staying in the throttle slightly. Otherwise you will ground loop. WW1, WW2 or flying a Maule today, you must "fly" a taildragger all the way to the hangar. Edited by GeneralZod
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BOS-Jcomm said: On this same subject of the overall physics modeling in BoS, and bringing the discussion "further down" :rolleyes: to the ground, and since I started ( finally ! ) playing Rise of Flight, I noticed how important it is to give some bursts of throttle to keep the directional control of most ww1 birds at the end of the landing rollout, if we do not want to get the tail going nuts and trying to get ahead of the nose ....

 

Then, I picked the LagG3 and the La5 in il-2 BoS, landed both, made constant rudder corrections while I had still a bit of speed during the rollouts, and as soon as I got slower, where usually the ground loops start to happen, I decided to do the same - and know what ? I was able to bring the aircraft to a stop straight as an arrow !Actually it demonstrates that you need air going around the rudder for it to have authority. On a taildragger this is especially important on the ground. When you lose airspeed after landing you start to lose rudder authority so you must maintain it by using the prop to keep air flowing around your rudder. Using the prop to keep air around the rudder involves you staying in the throttle slightly. Otherwise you will ground loop. WW1, WW2 or flying a Maule today, you must "fly" a taildragger all the way to the hangar.

 

Throttle could be need only in emergency situation during landing run,  in most cases there is enought to use rudder and brakes.  During my RL flying taildraggers never was forced to use throttle at the landing run on the ground to counteract swing.  In ROF and  BOS some planes got swing at the end of landing run no metter of wind condtions ( even without any wind).  These is not correct.

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I land bf109 fine without throttle, yak too

Well I mean I might have like 10-20% on

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Throttle could be need only in emergency situation during landing run,  in most cases there is enought to use rudder and brakes.  During my RL flying taildraggers never was forced to use throttle at the landing run on the ground to counteract swing.  In ROF and  BOS some planes got swing at the end of landing run no metter of wind condtions ( even without any wind).  These is not correct.

Do you have landing in RL in snow or ice?

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If it was question of ice or snow all planes should be affected in BOS.  Beside all planes taxi in BOS like would be ice everyhere :P

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Throttle could be need only in emergency situation during landing run,  in most cases there is enought to use rudder and brakes.  During my RL flying taildraggers never was forced to use throttle at the landing run on the ground to counteract swing.  In ROF and  BOS some planes got swing at the end of landing run no metter of wind condtions ( even without any wind).  These is not correct.

Well then you got lucky. If you keep landing them that way in RL you will have a very expensive day soon. Seen it happen to lot of guys that thought they could end a landing run or keep rolling on the taxiway without keeping throttle cracked. It doesn't affect all planes in BOS because I beleive the tailwheel locks aren't modelled correctly.

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Well then you got lucky. If you keep landing them that way in RL you will have a very expensive day soon. Seen it happen to lot of guys that thought they could end a landing run or keep rolling on the taxiway without keeping throttle cracked. It doesn't affect all planes in BOS because I beleive the tailwheel locks aren't modelled correctly.

 

You can get away landing without throttle because of the tailwheel lock I guess, I can land just fine with the 109, 190 and the Stuka with the throttle set back to 0, meanwhile if I do the same the LaGG and the La5 I end up ground looping by the end of the landing rollout (as they dont have tailwheel locks), but if I keep a little bit of throttle they land just fine and I dont have the ground looping issue.

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Im flying free castorable taildragger  without tailwheel lock and yet no need add throttle at the landing run even with moderate sidewind. For now rudder and brakes were enough.

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Im flying free castorable taildragger  without tailwheel lock and yet no need add throttle at the landing run even with moderate sidewind. For now rudder and brakes were enough.

 

I have no expertise when we talk about real life flying, but I guess flying a taildragger with that monstruosity of big engine is very different than flying a civil common taildragger, pretty much like the way it is racing with a everyday car and try to compare racing with a proper race modded car. But thats just my opinion and you're free to disagree.  :salute:

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I want to thank the people that were and are involved in testing the FW-190 against Russian fighters. Their testing makes the point that in the Battle of Stalingrad the FW-190 is inferior to Russian fighters. The FW-190 also has severe limitations built into its flight model that did not exist in reality. In fact the FW-190 was the superior fighter on the Eastern front, especially during the time period of the Battle of Stalingrad.

 

The book I quoted from earlier was written by a Russian historian who is an expert on Soviet aviation in World War II and by a retired Russian Air Force Col. I will quote again there description of the FW-190. "For the Russian front the FW-190 was to prove the ideal machine, combining ruggedness with maneuverability and stability". "In short, a superb dog fighter - in all but the tightest horizontal turns - an excellent gun platform".

 

I hope that the information and data provided in this form will motivate the developers to make significant changes. If they do, I believe they will have a higher level of acceptance in the aircraft simulator community.

+1 Deffo.

I am tired of this thread now the conversation is just going round and round in circles.

The only thing that is for sure is the FM needs a tweak here and there at least.

Edited by voncrapenhauser

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I have no expertise when we talk about real life flying, but I guess flying a taildragger with that monstruosity of big engine is very different than flying a civil common taildragger, pretty much like the way it is racing with a everyday car and try to compare racing with a proper race modded car. But thats just my opinion and you're free to disagree.  :salute:

 

The engine size, displacement, power, etc. doesn't matter when the power is at idle.

 

That's why those types of consideration are a big deal for takeoff, not so much for a safe, on speed, landing where the throttle is closed and left there during landing rollout.

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Well after a little research it seems there are guys that do power off landings with taildraggers. However the most important rule that I did notice between the two techniques is keeping the stick in your gut the entire time from landing rollout to your parking spot. Are you guys doing this? It keeps your tailwheel firmly planted to the ground increasing the wheels authority. The only reason I can give that the planes are different from each other in game is maybe they were in RL as well. Try using my power on method for the touchy planes and you will be ok. I have had no problem using my method, it just takes some practice.

Edited by GeneralZod

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I wonder if anyone feel that something was changed in Lagg3 flying characteristic?

 

I havent flown it for some time and when i tried it yesterday i got initial impression that Lagg3 is much easier to fly now.  I checked it in hard turns and i feel that it dont stall like before.  I could quite steep turn at speed 300 kph without flaps with changing turn direction with easy. Before as i remember Lagg-3 want to stall if speed was drop below 350 kph in turns.  Stall was much impreditable then now.  Also it looks that it keep little engergy and speed now ?

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