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N1SB.Jefu

Navigating Stalingrad

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I'm half relieved and half terrified that the ability to navigate via the map icon has been removed.

 

I have some experience with air navigation from Cliffs, with the small caveat that when flying over the southern coast of the United Kingdom, it's very difficult to not know where you are. In BoS I'm currently choosing my destination, choosing my heading, crossing my fingers I get there or I'm lost. My only salvation is to hopefully find the Volga.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm almost certain that the Luftwaffe found this battlefield to be a navigational nightmare and the navigational aspect of the game is essential in a sim, but if anyone has any advice on how to get my bearings quicker, I would appreciate it!

Edited by N1SB.Jefu

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Yes. But it is much more rewarding when you get to where you wanted to go. For me, pressing "O" and comparing the tree lines depicted on the map to what I see below works 90% of the time. The outlines on the map are an exact matches to what is on the ground. Even the troops back in the day didn't have this luxury. There are many spots where trees are bunched in really discernible patterns like being squarish or thick lines.

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Why can't a sim just give us a map that we can use and shows our position, and still be on Expert settings? I know this is a simulator and all, but I'm more interested in aircraft simulation than I am in a map navigation sim.

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Roads and trainlines work quite well for nav purposes. Once you fly around a bit you kind of get to know the place.

Edited by 19te.Leaf

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Now, you must be talking about multiplayer, right? Because in single player, now we're forced to see navigation icons, which is very annoying IMO.

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Why can't a sim just give us a map that we can use and shows our position, and still be on Expert settings? I know this is a simulator and all, but I'm more interested in aircraft simulation than I am in a map navigation sim.

 

One issue I see is that the devs actually bothered implementing radio beacon navigation instruments (which is part of what you call aircraft simulation).. but then gave forced radar map for both normal and expert modes.

 

I hope in the future we can get "Hardcore" difficulty option which can be used in MP servers and they wouldn't be "unranked" for using custom difficulty.

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Using compass headings and time to waypoint gets you fairly accurately where you want to go.

Bodies of water, to me, are the best landmarks.

 

One of the best flight sim experiences I've had was navigating back from France in CoD at night low on fuel and in Desastersoft where dead is dead. Finding my airfield and landing at night on the reserve tank was awesome!

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One issue I see is that the devs actually bothered implementing radio beacon navigation instruments (which is part of what you call aircraft simulation).. but then gave forced radar map for both normal and expert modes.

 

I hope in the future we can get "Hardcore" difficulty option which can be used in MP servers and they wouldn't be "unranked" for using custom difficulty.

My whole thing is that I want to use Expert difficulty without feeling like I'm lost all the time. To me, the whole blind map thing is a turnoff.

 

I hope single players keeps the navigation stuff on as an option that can be used on Expert settings without a loss in XP. To me this is a great step, but like others said, it should be able to be turned off for those who don't want it.

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Warpig, when you learn the map it will not be as much of an issue.

 

Just takes time. Don't worry, you're not the only one lost. I am too but get a bit better every day.

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If you think this is difficult to navigate. In Il2 1946 we are a Pacific squad on a carrier. Try doing a mission out in the open Pacific and come back to carrier 60 minutes later with the carrier moving. We also took navigation as part of the immerse experience. We are not a squad that enjoys the quake servers. We enjoyed the challenge like they had to do back then. We are waiting for the rest of features to be implemented.

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We enjoyed the challenge like they had to do back then.

 

Exactly!

 

Here's what you could do to experience that challenge and navigate like a pro:

  • Print the BoS map. You don't need to squeeze it on one sheet of paper, just print it on multiple sheets. Make multiple copies of each sheet.
  • Put the map on your desk or on your lap while flying.
  • Mark your current position on the map with an X.
  • While flying, determine how many kilometers you cover in one minute, five minutes, and ten minutes.
  • Look at the compass and determine your heading.
  • Look at the clock, and after having flown in one direction for five minutes, determine how many kilometers that would be (rough estimate is good enough).
  • Draw a line on your map from your previous position, and mark the estimated current spot on your map with a circle.
  • Look at the ground and see whether you can identify any of the features on the map around your circle. If you can, mark your current spot with an X; if not, the circle will still give you a rough idea.

This is easy to do even when flying in combat situations because you are always aware of your general direction and time anyway.

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My whole thing is that I want to use Expert difficulty without feeling like I'm lost all the time. To me, the whole blind map thing is a turnoff.

 

I hope single players keeps the navigation stuff on as an option that can be used on Expert settings without a loss in XP. To me this is a great step, but like others said, it should be able to be turned off for those who don't want it.

That's what expert is all about... Feeling lost ;-)

Actually your plane icon shows up on the "O" map anyways

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That's what expert is all about... Feeling lost ;-)

Actually your plane icon shows up on the "O" map anyways

Hmm, never knew about the "O" map. Although, my game has been shelved waiting for things like trim axes and such. I've been feeling the urge to get into it lately, just trying to finish up some stuff on another game that I'm into right now.

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I really dont like that to complete a sp mission we have to fly through the mission exit as.it's normally in a nondiscript area. I can often get to the target and back to base but find it very hard to get to the exit point especially on missions where I will be dogfighting and it takes me way off course, I really wish this was rethinked

Edited by AeroAce
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There is high detail map about on the forum, I sent mine to a poster shop to be printed At and it's printed on a shiny\plasticy\bendy paper so i can fold and write on it, was about 20 usd

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I use a map posted by indiaciki

From post:  http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/12994-map-files/?do=findComment&comment=203481

 

I learned to navigate by using this map up on a second monitor and then flying out from just one airfield and looking around.  It took a fair amount of time but it was a good feeling getting to the point that I could recognize where I was.

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I really dont like that to complete a sp mission we have to fly through the mission exit as.it's normally in a nondiscript area. I can often get to the target and back to base but find it very hard to get to the exit point especially on missions where I will be dogfighting and it takes me way off course, I really wish this was rethinked

Well look at it this way

Its realistic to have a "combat egress" point. to "succeed" in real life you not only need to destroy the target but you need to make it back out of enemy territory in some sort of good order. Real mission have those type of waypoints, this one is just a bit more simple, or maybe not? I don't know how complex a flight plan really was in WWII.

 

The "ingress" and "egress" waypoints enable the Short mission concept which I think is a good feature. Long mission are fun but sometimes you don't have the time and I think a key point where flight sims don't appeal to some gamers is they take too long and they can't be saved or have checkpoints.

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Land navigation is easier then open water. Since base is not moving like a carrier. All you really need is a (push point). That is a landmark you would push off to in a predetermine heading back to base. In a mission you will know approximate where your mission targets are. Look at map and pick a couple of push points with a heading back to base and write those headings down. Even in a fog of war at worst know where some landmarks headings are from base and push off those landmarks in your predetermined heading at start of mission.

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Treelines and shapes of the little towns.

 

East of the Volga has a bunch of little ponds.

 

Gumrack is probably the best landmark.

 

In EA,I got lost so many times, especially spotting the white airfields, but it was very rewarding when I finally knew my way around.

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Warpig, when you learn the map it will not be as much of an issue.

 Just takes time. Don't worry, you're not the only one lost. I am too but get a bit better every day.

Exactly. A good chance to learn the map has been the flights to unlock stuff. Instead of using autopilot and twice speed with "O", manual flights in expert mode did the job for me.

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In Il2 1946 we are a Pacific squad on a carrier. Try doing a mission out in the open Pacific and come back to carrier 60 minutes later with the carrier moving. We also took navigation as part of the immerse experience. We are not a squad that enjoys the quake servers. We enjoyed the challenge like they had to do back then. We are waiting for the rest of features to be implemented.

 

That's very funny, did some long  "dead recknoning" flights online in il-2'46 over sea, and find the target, and the carrier. :)

 

 

OP - Print one these "il-2" wind rose with reciprocal bearings:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Kristorf/CompassRose.jpg

http://www.aircombatgroup.co.uk/flight_school/general/advanced_nav.php

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As long as you remember which side of the Volga you're on, navigating is hella easy.

As a German to find Stalingrad -> go East

As a Russian -> go West

 

Some examples for A/Fs:

Pitomnik is the field with the bright parallel runways directly West from the "dent" in the centre Stalingrad.

Gumrak is a single runway field with a very dark texture directly West of the island at the Nothern part of the city.

Ver*somethingsomething* Akthuba is a single runway field with a light texture you can easy find by going East following the river flowing into the Volga at the Northern island next to the city.

Beketovka is a single runway field with a light texture easily findable by extending the line of perfectly straight trees to the West of Beketvoka, which itself is easy to find as it's a town directly south of Stalingrad on the Volga.

Grishin you can easily find by following the Volga south until you're almost past the huge island south of Stalingrad.

 

And so on. It really is rather easy once you can place a few of the unchanging and obvious landmarks.

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That's very funny, did some long  "dead recknoning" flights online in il-2'46 over sea, and find the target, and the carrier. :)

 

 

OP - Print one these "il-2" wind rose with reciprocal bearings:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Kristorf/CompassRose.jpg

http://www.aircombatgroup.co.uk/flight_school/general/advanced_nav.php

 

Thanks for the second link, Sokol, that's a great article, and the embedded videos are a great watch! Inspired me to do some nav planning, fly a mission on the deck, and it actually works - all waypoints reached, and arrived back at the home base. Might have had something to do with the fact that the home base didn't move (as opposed to a carrier  :) ).

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As long as you remember which side of the Volga you're on, navigating is hella easy.

As a German to find Stalingrad -> go East

As a Russian -> go West

 

Some examples for A/Fs:

Pitomnik is the field with the bright parallel runways directly West from the "dent" in the centre Stalingrad.

Gumrak is a single runway field with a very dark texture directly West of the island at the Nothern part of the city.

Ver*somethingsomething* Akthuba is a single runway field with a light texture you can easy find by going East following the river flowing into the Volga at the Northern island next to the city.

Beketovka is a single runway field with a light texture easily findable by extending the line of perfectly straight trees to the West of Beketvoka, which itself is easy to find as it's a town directly south of Stalingrad on the Volga.

Grishin you can easily find by following the Volga south until you're almost past the huge island south of Stalingrad.

 

And so on. It really is rather easy once you can place a few of the unchanging and obvious landmarks.

 

Agree with this post - i use the SP campaign to explore the map, and try to make a mental note on each "thing" i find - just like you describe.

what helps me too, is the treelines and shapes of the woods near Stalingrad - they are very distinctive.

I have not explored the far west of the map yet, where landmarks are fewer... a lot fewer :)

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At the beginning i found a little difficult to navigate on the map! But now i am learning how to proceed. I mainly use cities, rivers, lakes and forest as reference points. To me it's difficult to use the roads and railways as reference. Is better to take a wingman with you to help with the navigation.

Edited by Tales

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Stupid decision, those who wanted "hardcore experience" could have always turned off the planes icons.

 

People who eyes intensive job like me don't wanna kill our eyes even more looking for landmarks that barely recognizable on the map after a whole day of hard.

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Stupid decision, those who wanted "hardcore experience" could have always turned off the planes icons.

 

People who eyes intensive job like me don't wanna kill our eyes even more looking for landmarks that barely recognizable on the map after a whole day of hard.

 

:huh:

 

But nothing has changed unless the addition of the option for multiplayer servers set the map without "GP".

 

For SP still player option see or not that "GPS" and Compass/Waypoint indicator in Campaign EXPERT mode.  They are ON be default and can be turned off with (I).

 

Back to subject, a good training for "without aids" navigation is Veteran66 Chir Front mini campaign, not far distances, basically go for East, return to West, various cities as landscape reference, besides the river.

 

Edited by Sokol1

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Stupid decision, those who wanted "hardcore experience" could have always turned off the planes icons.

 

The people who don't want a "hardcore experience", shouldn't be in a "hardcore server". Sure we could have pressed "I" to take the icons away, but that puts you at a major disadvantage as no one else did it, and all they had to do was fly-by-wire to your icon on the map. Not fair for people who join those servers for the immersion. Edited by Silky

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Map icons on/off isn't as straightforward as you might think. I don't know if it's a server setting, but the icons for other aircraft disappear pretty quickly as they move away from friendly airfields. 

 

Personally I like the Devs' rationale - that observers in friendly territory will have been spotting aircraft for you. This - for me (!) - is a big gameplay enhancement, which brings the "realism" vs "fun" balance much nearer the way I used to enjoy IL2. 

 

I mean, I do like navigating and that particular challenge (I've played the IL2 single mission several times because it's tense and fun), but I also get frustrated if I can't say where I am, or if squadron mates can't call for help because they're even more rubbish at navigating than me! So I like the way things are - but I'd like to think that in future this will be a difficulty option that can be set by the host.

Edited by No601_Swallow

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Yes, I got a bit lost flying the He111 resupply with icons off , I had to loop around to find landmarks and then continue. It was only afterwards I realised that icons were an option that could be activated on that server and my wallowing could easly have been homed in on by the opposition.

 

I figure I had just done the BoS equivalent of splashing around in the sea just off Seal Island wearing a fur coat, some stick-on flippers and a thick coating of bacon fat.

The Heinkel has radar to find the nearest friendly A/F.

It's quite literally impossible to get lost in it if you actually take a look at the cockpit  :biggrin:

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The Heinkel has radar to find the nearest friendly A/F.

 

Be "radar" you mean the AFN-2 radio beacon?

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Yes. And now is your time to quote 200 pages of Wikipedia to explain the difference even though it doesn't matter one bloody bit.

Go!

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Just to clarify before someone ask where are locate the "radar scope" in He 111 panel...   ;)

 

If you want Wiki pages go find.  :P

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Map icons on/off isn't as straightforward as you might think. I don't know if it's a server setting, but the icons for other aircraft disappear pretty quickly as they move away from friendly airfields. 

 

Personally I like the Devs' rationale - that observers in friendly territory will have been spotting aircraft for you. This - for me (!) - is a big gameplay enhancement, which brings the "realism" vs "fun" balance much nearer the way I used to enjoy IL2. 

 

I mean, I do like navigating and that particular challenge (I've played the IL2 single mission several times because it's tense and fun), but I also get frustrated if I can't say where I am, or if squadron mates can't call for help because they're even more rubbish at navigating than me! So I like the way things are - but I'd like to think that in future this will be a difficulty option that can be set by the host.

 

Yes but it's difficult to observers at that time to report exact locations, with GPS precision. The devices at that time were imprecise, I think it's unrealistic the icons in the map! A radio call reporting positions of aircraft is much more acceptable. And is not possible to determine if it's a friend or foe all the time.

 

Bomber pilots normally will try unusual approaching headings, the terrain or the clouds for cover. I think it's a question of style, if you does not want to lose your time tracking the enemy you should go and play in another server. The fun for some is to play in a more realistic manner. Ok, it's a game, it's not realistic anyway, but so realistic as allowed by the technology. 

 

Maybe it's fun for you, but it's not for bomber pilots trying to make their run unpunished!

Edited by Tales

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Yes. And now is your time to quote 200 pages of Wikipedia to explain the difference even though it doesn't matter one bloody bit.

Go!

 

To be fair, that would matter a ton. A radar on the He111 would be pretty awesome. :)

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...The fun for some is to play in a more realistic manner. Ok, it's a game, it's not realistic anyway, but so realistic as allowed by the technology. 

 

Maybe it's fun for you, but it's not for bomber pilots trying to make their run unpunished!

 

I totally agree! Even in my squadron there is a big range of opinion, so options for servers in the realism/difficulty settings would be great!

 

As I say, I like enemy icons near friendly airfields (even for bombers, because hopefully they can be at a high altitude and retreat, or be accompanied by escorts. Jabo boys, as always, have to take their chances!), but maybe there could be a slider (or config. settings) - to adjust the distance at which the icons disappear.

 

It's all down to options, isn't it. Choice! 

 

 

[Having said that, I still like (personally speaking, of course) the current set up, particularly the "selfie" icon. Even if it seems unrealistic, it's probably closer to the reality for actual pilots who either knew the terrain very well or had a navigator to do the hard work!  :P .

 

About realism, again everyone has a different opinion. Personally I like identifying icons for other aircraft, but hate the HUD which gives readouts for heading/speed/alt, etc and control settings in percentages! Sadly most of my squadron mates were/are completely the other way around!  :wacko:  So when we put up our own servers the difficulty options will be rubbish! Ah well...!]

Edited by No601_Swallow
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Exactly. A good chance to learn the map has been the flights to unlock stuff. Instead of using autopilot and twice speed with "O", manual flights in expert mode did the job for me.

 

 

 

I also found that helpful. I hate the single player grind but there was that.

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Good (involuntary) navigation practice. In one mission Chir Front, chasing Pe-2 until near the "Cauldron"(?) I notice the "red lamp" and turn for home.

 

qr0wu0.jpg

 

 

Need know where I am, set a course for home and fly at minimal settings (ATA/RPM) to spare fuel and maintain or gain altitude for eventual glide.

After a long ~270KMH fly, fortunately the fuel last until sign the runway and are able to make a engine off landing. In one piece. :)

Edited by Sokol1
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