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SeaW0lf

Realistic flak environment

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This might be my only suggestion to BOS, since I have trust in the outcome of it and trust in the developers and the community as a whole, that together have much more knowledge than me. But since we have ambient flak at ROF, I am concerned to see the same feature at BOS.

 

So I would suggest developing a realistic flak environment, is this is not being developed already, since it is almost as important in the dynamics of the air combats as the aircraft itself.

 

Of course it would not be the same dynamics of the First World War, for I think the Second World War had already sectored flak, but it would be good to not have the choice of random ambient flak, but space for the mission builders to have freedom to create a realistic flak environment.

 

That would be super duper.

Cheers,

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I can see that causing a lot of rage.

 

It kills the game. Not to mention the immersion, which ironically was its initial intent.

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I honestly think this is a missions builder's decision which also involves mission economics.

I take you speak about frontline flak.

What they do to make missions less complicated while more economic in distribution of active elements is defining the entire frontline neutral.

That way the flak fires at all air traffic.

It is a compromise to make the whole less demanding on the server making it available for more players at once.

Choices, choices ... they keep returning in life and mostly to make ends meet.

Edited by West

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I actually like the ambient flak in RoF. RBII/3D had it as well, not all flak over the front lines was real in that title either.

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I honestly think this is a missions builder's decision which also involves mission economics.
I take you speak about frontline flak.
What they do to make missions less complicated while more economic in distribution of active elements is defining the entire frontline neutral.
That way the flak fires at all air traffic.
It is a compromise to make the whole less demanding on the server making it available for more players at once.
Choices, choices ... they keep returning in life and mostly to make ends meet.

 

 

 

I think that it is not that simple. The ambient flak doesn’t fire at all airplanes, but it kind of hovers around square miles of area around a plane, so it seems. You have zoom in to check every flak cluster or you might risk seeing the enemy too late, and then you spend most of the time at no man’s land looking for imaginary planes. I have chased friendly planes because they happened to be at the same space and time when an ambient flack cluster busted over them. And sometimes you get real flak mixed with ambient flak at the same time. The latter happens at Syndicate, a server that gives more importance to real flak, and it is a pain.

 

And there is always a chance that some mission builders might think that ambient flak substitutes the real one and they just don’t care to place the real thing, because most targets are close to the no man's land. It all becomes a huge fast food server and people kind of meet in the same place to have combats. In a given mission you know where the furballs are going to happen. The rest of the map becomes disposable. Not to mention that when you get to no man’s land and start seeing ambient flak, the first thing that comes to mind is “777”. And this is not personal, I love ROF and they make miracles happen, but I can’t stop thinking about it, because unconsciously you know that it is not supposed to be there.

 

I actually like the ambient flak in RoF. RBII/3D had it as well, not all flak over the front lines was real in that title either.

 

And Red Baron is ancient. Not everything they did was good. But this is just me.

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Sorry, what exactly is the problem with ambient flak? I play RoF but never online, so I hadn't noticed anything strange about it. Also, I've come to realize that I'm just not particularly observant.

So, ambient flak is just decorative and can't kill you? Or it targets friend and foe indiscriminately (sounds good, if so).

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Hmm I am guessing that ambient flak is just decorative and like in IL2 if the mission builder was

lazy will not stop "vulching". But the topic "vulching" is in any way a highly disputed one.

As airfield raids where rather common practice, and should be allowed in the game.

Flak like this and aircraft will hardly get through:

Feindlicher-Hafen.gif

 

Flak like this and you are asking for it!

Sonntag2309-101c.gif

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I rather liked the way the flak was initially in IL-2 Cliffs of Dover. I loved seeing all of the small pieces shoot out in all directions when it detonated. I know it's merely cosmetic but imagine what it will be like with the Oculus Rift HD.

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Sorry, what exactly is the problem with ambient flak? I play RoF but never online, so I hadn't noticed anything strange about it. Also, I've come to realize that I'm just not particularly observant.

So, ambient flak is just decorative and can't kill you? Or it targets friend and foe indiscriminately (sounds good, if so).

 

 

The problem is that it interferes with the game play over no man’s land. I don’t know exactly how it works, but it seems to populate some few square miles around the plane (?). It has isolated bursts and clusters, and especially the clusters makes you look for enemy planes at the edges of no man’s land. As a matter of fact, instinctively I always look for enemy planes in clusters. And the single bursts are often mistaken by a plane in the distance (people have mentioned this already). I can’t be always determining in which area I should look for enemy planes because I am in the “ambient flak zone”. Some people say that they can have some orientation with ambient flak, but I never saw a plane in it, because the square area is so large that it can be just my own ambient flak or it could be overlapping with the ambient flak's zone of an enemy plane that could be literally everywhere.
 
I am researching flak and Rickenbacker’ book has more than 50 paragraphs describing how flak was part of the dynamics of combat, almost like a shadow of themselves. They lived with it, they fought with it, they took advantage of it and they died in it. Just to give a few examples:
 
As our Commanding Officer, Major Huffer, tells the story, it was about ten o'clock when the anti-aircraft guns on top of Mt. Mihiel began belching great white puffs of smoke overhead at a very high altitude. An alerte came to us immediately that a German photographing machine was coming our way and was at that moment almost directly over our field.
***
While flying south and climbing steeply I noticed ahead of us, in the direction of our own aerodrome, an enormous number of white shell-bursts dotting the heavens at about our altitude. These were American anti-aircraft shells and they told me clearly that an enemy aeroplane was operating over Toul; likewise they indicated that no American planes were in the sky there, else our gunners would be more cautious in firing.
(amazing that flak showed no allied planes in the area)
***
Later, crossing the Moselle about four miles north of Pont-A-Mousson I noticed considerable anti-aircraft shelling up in the direction of Metz. I climbed higher and scanned the sky for machines.
***
German " Archy " is terrifying at first acquaintance. Pilots affect a scorn for it, and indeed at high altitudes the probabilities of a hit are small. But when attacking a balloon which hangs only 1,500 feet above the guns (and this altitude is of course known precisely to the anti-aircraft gunner) Archy becomes far more dangerous.
(and, in this case, most of the balloons are at the edge of no man’s land.)
***
Neither of the German pilots was seriously injured. Upon our questioning them as to how they happened to be about in such weather, they informed us that they had been summoned to go up to attack two patrolling machines that were being " Archied " between Pont-à-Mousson and St. Mihiel. They had followed Chambers and me until they lost us in the fog.
***
As we passed over St. Mihiel on our way home I perceived white Archies bursting, back in the direction of Verdun. Closer scrutiny disclosed the same Albatros two-seater quietly riding the air-bumps and making steadfastly for our side of the lines. The pilots thought they had me bluffed and were going on with their work in full view of Smyth and myself.
***
Hall was immediately beside me. He was evidently as pleased as I was over our success, for he danced his machine about in incredible maneuvers. And then I realized that old friend Archy was back on the job. We were not two miles away from the German antiaircraft batteries and they put a furious bombardment of shrapnel all about us.
***
Many times since have I noticed this marvelous signaling arrangement between the anti-aircraft gunners and the German aeroplanes. Upon one occasion I saw shell-bursts informing the Boche pilots of my presence above a cloud when I was hiding and planning a surprise party for the oncoming Huns. This admirable liaison between German artillery and their aviators might be imitated with great advantage by our own army. For not only does the threatened machine get this valuable warning, but aeroplane reinforcements far distant can see these smoke-bursts and fly to the rescue with full information as to the number, altitude and perhaps the type of hostile machines ahead of them. Almost invariably an overpowering enemy formation appeared shortly after these signals were sent up.
***
Still another signal was adopted by the Hun batteries to indicate the formation of our machines to their pilots. Through their powerful telescopes they ascertained the relative position of each machine in our formation. If one of our machines climbed high above the rest of the formation in order to perch well upstairs and guard against a surprise from the ceiling, this maneuver was communicated to the Boche pilots by sending up one shell which burst well above the others. Immediately the Boche pilots were on their guard against an antagonist who was hiding in the glare of the sun and could not be seen by them. The single high burst notified them that he was there.
(Not that it can be replicated in the game, but it shows how it was important. Notice the part “the single high burst notified them that he was there”).
***
We flew homewards together, Green and I, encountering a furious storm of Archy as we crossed the trenches.
***
And miracle it was, for no other American pilot, and but one or two other aviators during the whole course of the war were shot down from on high by an Archy in full flight. The shell had Hamilton's name written on it and there was no escape!
(about its precision at high altitudes)
***
And so on; and there is an account that sometimes they would go from one city to another being followed by flak. And this is just from the Rickenbacker’ book. I am reading the Kindle version of James McCudden’s book and he also mentions flak.
 
So, it played a fundamental role in the war and it is not that hard to place some batteries at important targets, at the balloons, at important cities, bridges and such. Without the ambient flak, you would have just the real thing and the immersion would be much better. Not to mention that if a mission builder doesn’t place flak, it won’t have flak at all, so he will have to put it.
 
If real flak is a load to the engine, it could be worked a way to place sectored batteries and such, without animation, I don’t know. I saw a post talking about it here. But it should play a more important play in the game and the ambient flak shouldn’t be there to interfere with the game play. In BOS the dynamics might change, but it would be good to give it a real thought on the issue to avoid the same as in ROF. Not matter what they come up with, "ambient flak", should not be an option for a game of such magnitude. Or then do the inverse: place ambient flak only in Mods On mode for those who think it is cool. It is where ambient flak really belongs.
 
There is a poll at ROF to add a mods-off option to turn off the ambient flak from no man’s land and 83% are in favor of this. So, I worry about BOS too.

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So, the main problem is that, because it's always around you, it makes hard to know when its 'real' flak targeting a plane, and when it's just decorative flak?

I'd never really noticed. For BoS I'd expect more narrowly set flak patterns most of the time as we'll be hitting smaller, more mobile targets.

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As already requested in the suggestion thread, I would like to have an AAA barrage object you could place over cities or important targets. This would simulate several guns that put up a barrage at a certain height within a certain radius.

Defence of airfields and smaller ground targets is best left to individual AAA guns and MGs.

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So, the main problem is that, because it's always around you, it makes hard to know when its 'real' flak targeting a plane, and when it's just decorative flak?

I'd never really noticed. For BoS I'd expect more narrowly set flak patterns most of the time as we'll be hitting smaller, more mobile targets.

 

 

Yes, mostly. You need to wait for a recurrent pattern to spot real flak or you need to zoom in to try to spot a plane, which means that you have to check every flak cluster; fake or not. And if you have the bad luck to spot a fake cluster near a friendly plane at your side of the line, you are going to pay attention to it until you figure that it is not being followed by real flak. If you have clouds in play, then you are in trouble, because you don’t know if the real flak missed the plane and you have to go check it out. I supposing that real flak can’t spot a plane behind a cloud. I mean, the variables are immense and this is precious time and immersion wasted.  At Syndicate you often see real flak overlapping the ambient flak. Since we have many balloons, aerodromes, railroad terminals and other targets near the front line, it distracts you a lot. And this distraction reminds you of something that you shouldn’t be thinking. The immersion is totally gone.
 
Yes, I think that a good mix of sectored flak (to counter bombing raids, for example) and single flak could work fine in BOS. Maybe I would find a middle ground, but still there needs to be an option to single out an enemy plane with flak. I don’t have CloD, but I saw some videos with single flak batteries. 

As already requested in the suggestion thread, I would like to have an AAA barrage object you could place over cities or important targets. This would simulate several guns that put up a barrage at a certain height within a certain radius.

Defence of airfields and smaller ground targets is best left to individual AAA guns and MGs.

 

Thanks, Vander, I was talking about your post.

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Gotta agree with ya here Seawolf. The ambient flak in RoF is terrible. The quicker it gets axed the better.

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There is a poll at ROF to add a mods-off option to turn off the ambient flak from no man’s land and 83% are in favor of this. So, I worry about BOS too.

 

 

I never took that poll. Most, I'd bet, haven't. So you have 83% of the people who saw the poll and took it are in favor of it. That's not indicitive of anything other than those who saw the poll and wanted to take it, 83% don't want it and they chose to voice their answer because it matters to them. While most either didn't see the poll or didn't care enough to voice their vote "I like it" or "I don't like it."

 

  At Syndicate you often see real flak overlapping the ambient flak. Since we have many balloons, aerodromes, railroad terminals and other targets near the front line, it distracts you a lot. .

 

So it's distracting? Your quotes above already highlight that most AAA was harmless except around balloons. Exactly mirrors whats going on in RoF. And if you have trouble separating the concentrated defense AAA against the front line ambient AAA, then I can see why you don't like it and it makes it much harder for you to search out targets which is really the point of not wanting ambient AAA.

 

The real point to this not liking ambient AAA is that it makes it harder to find people to shoot down for some.

Edited by FuriousMeow

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I never took that poll. Most, I'd bet, haven't. So you have 83% of the people who saw the poll and took it are in favor of it. That's not indicitive of anything other than those who saw the poll and wanted to take it, 83% don't want it and they chose to voice their answer because it matters to them. While most either didn't see the poll or didn't care enough to voice their vote "I like it" or "I don't like it."

 

So it's distracting? Your quotes above already highlight that most AAA was harmless except around balloons. Exactly mirrors whats going on in RoF. And if you have trouble separating the concentrated defense AAA against the front line ambient AAA, then I can see why you don't like it and it makes it much harder for you to search out targets which is really the point of not wanting ambient AAA.

 

The real point to this not liking ambient AAA is that it makes it harder to find people to shoot down for some.

 

Hey, it is your prerogative to like fake Flak. I don’t like it and it is a fictional mod that for some reason ended up in the mods off mode. It has nothing to do with finding the enemy or not, for that we have Flying Circus, which does a great job. It is the way it happened, period, no matter you likes and dislikes. If you like fake flak you might like to watch a soccer match with several balls on the pitch.

 

If you didn’t see the poll, now you are aware of it, so you have a chance to cast your vote.  

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I'm sorry but is the objection to flak fire anything to do with server lag or just that it is distractive? I rather think the server lag point may be more valid than the other matter, however I still favor flak fire in BOS. I mean, what's WW2 aerial flying without those nasty meatballs and furs in the skies? It's bound to make each player sit up, sweat off the beer and take nothing for granted.

 

Let - there - be - flak - please!

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But let's try to avoid ambient flak - it's too plastic. Flak should come from guns firing in the mission, aiming at aircraft.

 

IL-2 could do this with hundreds of guns and planes, using Java 1.3 for goodness sake! :biggrin:

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I'm sorry but is the objection to flak fire anything to do with server lag or just that it is distractive? I rather think the server lag point may be more valid than the other matter, however I still favor flak fire in BOS. I mean, what's WW2 aerial flying without those nasty meatballs and furs in the skies? It's bound to make each player sit up, sweat off the beer and take nothing for granted.

 

Let - there - be - flak - please!

 

 

Hi Eagle, like 4shades said we are not against flak, just the opposite. We are advocating in benefit of the real flak. I am just pointing out that ambient flak it is not only a nuisance but it ends up spoiling the real flak. It kind of kill two birds with one stone, and I am not talking about planes, but gameplay.
 
I would love too to see those puffs of smoke over the skies in bombing sorties. Vander gave a great idea in another thread that they could use sectored flak (real) in some areas triggered by an event, but it has to be realistic and think that we need the option to have single batteries to single out planes. It was different than WWI, but they might have some similarities in the dynamics.
 
And the game engine should hold up the flak. If not, I am in favor of sacrificing some of the graphics, like terrain, to have real flak. Or give the option for people with powerful rigs to have both. 

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I hope that flak does not cause fps problems, I mean that has been talked about in the original IL2 when it was possible to drop

paratroopers. But that must be almost nine to ten years ago? Computers have improved in that time, so that should not be a reason

for "decorative flak" but a wee bit more intense.

Here is a nice training film from 1944 about flak:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIYVwqHM488

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I hope that flak does not cause fps problems, I mean that has been talked about in the original IL2 when it was possible to drop

paratroopers. But that must be almost nine to ten years ago? Computers have improved in that time, so that should not be a reason

for "decorative flak" but a wee bit more intense.

Here is a nice training film from 1944 about flak:

 

I saw a bit and it is amazing, LHH! Had no idea! It would be a great source of study. Thanks for the link!

Edited by Seawolf

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Your welcome, well as a former member of a bomber squadron this stuff was really usefull,

especially the low down on the deck stuff works miricals if done right.

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Your welcome, well as a former member of a bomber squadron this stuff was really usefull,

especially the low down on the deck stuff works miricals if done right.

 

I can see why :) I saw the whole thing and the video pretty much laid down the basic fundaments of flak for the WWII. Great stuff for a developer. I may apply some of the evasive fundaments to ROF.

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Fantastic video. This is what a sim should capture - the real depth and ingenuity of WW2 operations.

 

Cheers,

4S

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