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[Pb]Cybermat47

Stalingrad, and why the Fw190 should be in the game.

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I don't really understand what's the fuss about 190 is. Version will be a-3 wich was only marginally faster than 109 G2, it has worse rate of climb and it won't be that agile in turn fight anyways.

Sure it's great fighter but nothing "uber" compared to 109, and no russian plane in this planeset will be able to catch even 109 if flown correctly.

As a mainly german planes flyer it will be interesting to be on the other side compared to the early ROF days. Back then, before there were DR1s and Camels, we had exactly the same thing. Just vice versa. One side that had mainly the BnZ types and one with the TnB types.

 

Cant wait.

 

Winger

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The problem is not the 190 or the La 5, it's the player. What people need to understand is that on dogfight server, people will most likely fly the best aircraft which is available on their side. Even with a realistic and historic plane set, the fights will never be historical, because everyone is flying Spitfire and 109 (in the case of clod) and not hurricane or the 110. Hardly realistic from a historical point of view. So there are two options left: fly offline or fly historicaly accurate online missions.

I am glad that the 190 will make it into the game. And I am sure that bos benefits from this plane from a financial pov.

I would not say that for all players, there are some that see a challenge to diliberately fly a crap plane to show it can be done, and then there are the nut jobs that won´t give fighters a second glance, but solely fly bombers. On your argumentation, flight sims have to stay very main stream, and orientate themselves what those that cry loudest say, and use history only as a fig leaf.

I do hope that is not the sole view of the devolpers, as on that basis bring on the Lerche, and the sabre jet.

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I would not say that for all players, there are some that see a challenge to diliberately fly a crap plane to show it can be done, and then there are the nut jobs that won´t give fighters a second glance, but solely fly bombers. On your argumentation, flight sims have to stay very main stream, and orientate themselves what those that cry loudest say, and use history only as a fig leaf.

I do hope that is not the sole view of the devolpers, as on that basis bring on the Lerche, and the sabre jet.

 

I think you completely misunderstood Helofly's posting. He doesnt ask for the devs to churn out the most popular aircraft in order to cater to the "must fly the best aircraft there is" crowd. He is simply stating that when you are given a variety of aircraft choices people online usually gravitate towards those that are deemed the "best" (for whatever that means) or easiest to fly & fight in and that the rest of the planeset is not being touched and starts to collect dust, which is a pity...

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I would not say that for all players, there are some that see a challenge to diliberately fly a crap plane to show it can be done, and then there are the nut jobs that won´t give fighters a second glance, but solely fly bombers. On your argumentation, flight sims have to stay very main stream, and orientate themselves what those that cry loudest say, and use history only as a fig leaf.

I do hope that is not the sole view of the devolpers, as on that basis bring on the Lerche, and the sabre jet.

I never said that. There is a difference between adding only popular planes regardless of historical context and adding juste one extra plane. If I had a choice to make now if we should have a me 110 or a 190 D9 next, then I would pick the 110 without hesitation. And as I said before, it's nice to have the second of the only two fighter types for the Luftwaffe.

This Focke Wulf addition doesn't destroy the possibility of having realistic missions over Stalingrad. And that's the only thing that matters. As long as we can fly historical missions with realistic plane sets, they can add whatever they want (as long as it's not a waste of resources for planes that never saw service or planes that will never fit in future projects).

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I don't really understand what's the fuss about 190 is. Version will be a-3 wich was only marginally faster than 109 G2, it has worse rate of climb and it won't be that agile in turn fight anyways.

Sure it's great fighter but nothing "uber" compared to 109, and no russian plane in this planeset will be able to catch even 109 if flown correctly.

It's simple really, the Fw-190 makes up for people's terrible gunnery with a shotgun spread of 20mm shells. What's not to understand? :P

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 I digress a bit from my previous post. It will be fun to fly in a dogfight server single player missions and campaigns can easily be kept historical. It is a game after all.

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I never said that. There is a difference between adding only popular planes regardless of historical context and adding juste one extra plane. If I had a choice to make now if we should have a me 110 or a 190 D9 next, then I would pick the 110 without hesitation. And as I said before, it's nice to have the second of the only two fighter types for the Luftwaffe.

This Focke Wulf addition doesn't destroy the possibility of having realistic missions over Stalingrad. And that's the only thing that matters. As long as we can fly historical missions with realistic plane sets, they can add whatever they want (as long as it's not a waste of resources for planes that never saw service or planes that will never fit in future projects).

Yes I agree with that! I would have been surprised if the JG4 people would have seen that differantly, as I know you folks. ;)

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 I digress a bit from my previous post. It will be fun to fly in a dogfight server single player missions and campaigns can easily be kept historical. It is a game after all.

 

That wasn't my point when I quote you earlier.  I share your hope that BoS will be good enough to be called a simulator and not just a game.

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I think you completely misunderstood Helofly's posting. He doesnt ask for the devs to churn out the most popular aircraft in order to cater to the "must fly the best aircraft there is" crowd. He is simply stating that when you are given a variety of aircraft choices people online usually gravitate towards those that are deemed the "best" (for whatever that means) or easiest to fly & fight in and that the rest of the planeset is not being touched and starts to collect dust, which is a pity...

 

Sadly a lot of people do that. During the many years I played Il-2 I've seen people gravitate from plane to plane every patch, as the flight modeles chaneged. It pissed me off the most when the whole K4 crowd started flying Dora. Where before was one two of us flying D9 in a server, all of a sudden there were more 190's than 109's. :( it wasn't fun and interesting to fly 190 anymore. I started flying P47, f6f f4F and P38 more than fw190. The Jug remained an interesting plane to fly, and I'm loking forward to fly it in DCS ww2.

 

IN BOS I'll fly the single seater Il-2, Ju88, 190, while waiting for the IAR-80/81. Then, I'll fly that for a month. :lol

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I just can't believe all the people who are dead certain the 190 is a war winning game changer. I would take an Emil over any 190.

...but I'm sure I'm not the only 109 addict here.

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Sadly a lot of people do that. During the many years I played Il-2 I've seen people gravitate from plane to plane every patch, as the flight modeles chaneged. It pissed me off the most when the whole K4 crowd started flying Dora. Where before was one two of us flying D9 in a server, all of a sudden there were more 190's than 109's. :( it wasn't fun and interesting to fly 190 anymore. I started flying P47, f6f f4F and P38 more than fw190. The Jug remained an interesting plane to fly, and I'm loking forward to fly it in DCS ww2.

 

IN BOS I'll fly the single seater Il-2, Ju88, 190, while waiting for the IAR-80/81. Then, I'll fly that for a month. :lol

I don't find it surprising at all. Experienced ones have realized after years and tons of patches that these crates now are truly fearsome aircraft with MG151/20 fixed.

We can probably still remember times of (rightful) whining of many players how MG151 pods do more damage than those mounted on aircraft by default and it only took few years to fix this. Minengeschosses were missing from cannon belt (most likely best MG151/20 round in game).

 

K4, especially later on with nerfed manual prop pitch rocket climb capability was increasingly tough to survive in amongst marauding Mustangs, P-47 Later and Clownfire 25lbs ("I never overheat" at any alt at any setting). Truthfully you could probably expect to have more survivability in Bf-109G6AS & G10 than in K4.

 

But that's just my 2c, your experience may vary.

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Agree with all you said and I enjoyed greatly the new firepower.

But it was sad to see the 190 loose that rare exclusive status.

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I liked flying the A-9 with MK108 on warclouds, just too amusing to score a PK and rip a plane apart with the same single hit :D

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... there are some that see a challenge to diliberately fly a crap plane to show it can be done, ...

here's one.. heck here is a whole squadron (SvAF /F19/F16) who love cr@p planes

 

To shoot down a P11 in a 109E ...doesn't really excite us.. it's easy.... but you should hear us shout on comms when flying P11s shooting down 109s... talk about cheering and adrenaline rush..

 

for me any way, SIMS are ALL about challenges. The challenge of actually making a bird fly, the challenge to hit a bomb spot on from hi alt in close formation with your buddies, the challenge to take down a superior plane in a cr@p plane... AND the challenge to make a succesful landning on a carrier deck in motion in REALLY bad weather.... the challenge to navigate.

 

Those things are the reasons I have been flying the IL2 series... pretty much every month since it was released, and the reason why WT is virtually dusty in my rig; no challenge!

 

and yes.. the LAGG is the first bird I am going to try... because it looks like a more challenging plane to fly.

Edited by F19_Klunk
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I don't find it surprising at all. Experienced ones have realized after years and tons of patches that these crates now are truly fearsome aircraft with MG151/20 fixed.

Actually, the way the DM is done, the fix made the guns performance rather more inaccurate than accurate. The basically linear correlation between explosive content and structural damage made the round a lot stronger than it would historically have been in many cases. In game, on many occasions, it is a one hit kill. Or maybe an average three for a fighter. That's just way above historical performance, and way out of relation with other 20mm rounds in game, let alone smaller caliber guns.

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here's one.. heck here is a whole squadron (SvAF /F19/F16) who love cr@p planes

 

To shoot down a P11 in a 109E ...doesn't really excite us.. it's easy.... but you should hear us shout on comms when flying P11s shooting down 109s... talk about cheering and adrenaline rush..

 

for me any way, SIMS are ALL about challenges. The challenge of actually making a bird fly, the challenge to hit a bomb spot on from hi alt in close formation with your buddies, the challenge to take down a superior plane in a cr@p plane... AND the challenge to make a succesful landning on a carrier deck in motion in REALLY bad weather.... the challenge to navigate.

 

Those things are the reasons I have been flying the IL2 series... pretty much every month since it was released, and the reason why WT is virtually dusty in my rig; no challenge!

 

and yes.. the LAGG is the first bird I am going to try... because it looks like a more challenging plane to fly.

Absolutely agree! I am one of those nut cases, that next to never fly fighters, but almost only bombers, and in IL2 only the blue prop bombers.

It was always a challenge and great fun finding a way around all those lurking very fast and manouverable fighters and still hit your target and make it back! That is

sort of like playing chess, give every move you make a good thought, and with a bit of good luck out smart the fighters. That part has been so much fun

that it is bombers, transports or seaplanes all the way for me. No challenge no fun, no point playing. But that is just me.

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Agree with all you said and I enjoyed greatly the new firepower.

But it was sad to see the 190 loose that rare exclusive status.

Fly a crap plane and you are fairly sure to be pretty exclusive!

Same goes for bombers, I remember plenty of servers when flying IL2

where I was the only one flying a bomber, or if I was lucky two or three more,

but large numbers? Not online except when one entered a server with ones squadron.

The only times I have seen more than 10 bombers on one side.

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I like flying the lesser planes like p11 and I-16's . . . actually if a P11 is flowing right, the average 109 / p-51 / la 7  actually had a hard time hitting it. If I kept SA up and could tell when they were getting into a snapshot, a quick turn would cause a miss. 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if the devs put 190 in the mix as its firepower can make life hard for an IL-2 .. . a single 30mm or 20mm nose and machine guns of a 109 is good but not the band saw that a 190 has. 

 

Well the obvious reason is to please the 190 crowd because for both CLOD (battle of Britain) and BOS (Stalingrad) people  were asking for the 190.

 

I remember a running joke was if they came out with Spanish Civil War, or Korea, or Pearl Harbor, or Flying TIgers, theatres there would always be some cat asking for a FW  190.

 

 

I think most of us will fly what we want to fly. I like trying the weird planes on the planeset . . .which is pretty cool . 

 

 

I found the twin engine bombers (especially the American ones) if flown right, could go through the roving fighters, get on target and escape . in 1946

 

 

Sadly enough, most fighters circled the opposing airfield so once leaving there, there was a good chance a bomber could make it out to a ship or ground column to hit it. 

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In my opinion the game should not strictly limit itself to a specific theater and time period (despite the name, I know) but rather have theater options. For example if the 190 didn't fly in Stalingrad you can't fly it in the default multiplayer stalingrad missions, but in singleplayer/editor... do whatever you want!
 

So perhaps the 190 shouldn't come with release, but hopefully we'll see it soon after.

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In my opinion the game should not strictly limit itself to a specific theater and time period (despite the name, I know) but rather have theater options. For example if the 190 didn't fly in Stalingrad you can't fly it in the default multiplayer stalingrad missions, but in singleplayer/editor... do whatever you want!

 

So perhaps the 190 shouldn't come with release, but hopefully we'll see it soon after.

 

 

This early in the development stage, any aircraft that wasn't there and it's modeled, will take the place of a plane that was fighting at Stalingrad and deserves to be in the game.

    This brings a lot of problems because historical missions will either miss a main player, or have the wrong plane. In the case of FW-190 it may also mess up the fragile balance in the plane set.

Don't get me wrong, I love the FW-190, but at this early stage in the development it makes more sense to do the main players in the battle first, so you can make historical missions working.

  

A very important part of the Stalingrad air war revolved around the attempt to support the trapped German Army from the air. With the initial plane set, you can't do it at all. There are no transports at all in the initial plane set. Not even AI.

 I'd rather have a transport plane instead of the two bonus planes right now. There's plenty time for LA-5 vs FW-190 dogfights.

Edited by Jaws2002
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Ju 52 instead of Fw 190, Po-2 instead of La-5. Would have had my vote.

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That wasn't my point when I quote you earlier.  I share your hope that BoS will be good enough to be called a simulator and not just a game.

Well the sooner you pre-order the faster you`ll find out???? Be nice to see the more vocal members backing both projects from the off.

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Well the sooner you pre-order the faster you`ll find out???? Be nice to see the more vocal members backing both projects from the off.

 

 

 

Please don't take that feud and attitude in all the subforums. Thank you.

Edited by Jaws2002

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Don't forget that Kuban will be next where the Fw190 and La5 played a big part.

 

Just waiting for the p39 :)

 

:popcorm:

As did the P-39 :)

Looking forward to it myself, but my favourite would be the Yak9T :)

 

edit: to be more precise it were Fw190A-5 and F-2/3 employed by SchlG1 that saw combat in the kuban area.

Edited by ImPeRaToR

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Big guns, big fuss.

But still I think that we are in surprise about "lesser" gun equipped planes.

 

I thought and I still think that 7,62s are quite capable of messing down even the most armoured crates in WW2.

You just have to hit 'em where it hurts.

 

Unfortunately IL-2 always favoured cannons and heavy structural damage whereas 12,7 and especially 7,62 received short end of the story.

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Unfortunately IL-2 always favoured cannons and heavy structural damage whereas 12,7 and especially 7,62 received short end of the story.

 

You mean 1946?  In Clod the little guns do a good job of shredding 109s and Heinkels.

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You mean 1946?  In Clod the little guns do a good job of shredding 109s and Heinkels.

Yep.

I've actually played Clod very little, my experience is next to none but I seem to remember doing just fine damage with 7,62s.

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I think I have 8 hours of play time in CloD, and at least 6 or so were spent looking at skins I made because it has no skin viewer like rof/bos :)

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I think I have 8 hours of play time in CloD, and at least 6 or so were spent looking at skins I made because it has no skin viewer like rof/bos :)

 

My Ju-88 dropped many tons of bombs on Southern England since Clod was released. I'm surprised the bloody island is still floating. :lol:

 

 

Talking about skins, what would be the chances of getting the skin viewer and some templates earlier, so we get out hands dirty? :crazy:

Edited by Jaws2002

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My Ju-88 dropped many tons of bombs on Southern England since Clod was released. I'm surprised the bloody island is still floating. :lol:

 

 

Talking about skins, what would be the chances of getting the skin viewer and some templates earlier, so we get out hands dirty? :crazy:

Your chances probably scale with the amount of beer you send to moscow :friends:

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Nobody has ever made the ultimate flight sim that has pleased everyone. The devs can only do so much.

 

I support whatever extras they include. From a Fokker EIII to an F-22, it's all welcome. Yes, bring on the FW-190 and La-5.

 

If you do not prefer these aircraft they are optional to purchase and fly.

 

I am grateful we have talent keeping this franchise alive. It is a genuine Christmas gift. The extra aircraft are in the stocking.

 

How can anyone complain?

 

Be happy with the amazing treat coming soon!

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you guys are aware that you can control the plane set in the Server right? So if it wasn't there and you run a server don't put it in there. Now discussion over.

 

also you are aware that in Russia there is big gaming tournaments and gambling, that takes place on all games? So big reason for this plane set.

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You mean 1946?  In Clod the little guns do a good job of shredding 109s and Heinkels.

Moreso depeding on what ammo you select for your custom belt. Overall mg fire effectiveness modelling was a giant step up from IL2.

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Unfortunately IL-2 always favoured cannons and heavy structural damage whereas 12,7 and especially 7,62 received short end of the story.

 

How long have you played IL2 for? The green lasers of death in IL2 were absolutely lethal and at quite long ranges. With cannons you needed to be very close in.

 

In CLOD it is even worse for the 109s, the cannons aren't as hard hitting as you would expect and getting multiple hits is pretty hard. I know people that don't bother using the 20mm and the E1 is pretty popular even when the E3 is available.

 

Sure in dogfight servers a 190 can make one pass kills routinely if everyone is swirling round like flies on the deck (as per usual). But in a proper fight the 190 doesn't climb as well as the 109 and there were plenty of contemporary aircraft that could out climb it. The 190 had to stick to slashing attacks and using it's speed to run away which is only well and good if you are at some altitude advantage.

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Well in my online gaming IL2 world, the 109s traveled slightly in front and engaged the escorts while 190s had their way with the fat ones. Worked like a charm most of the time.

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How long have you played IL2 for? The green lasers of death in IL2 were absolutely lethal and at quite long ranges. With cannons you needed to be very close in.

 

In CLOD it is even worse for the 109s, the cannons aren't as hard hitting as you would expect and getting multiple hits is pretty hard. I know people that don't bother using the 20mm and the E1 is pretty popular even when the E3 is available.

 

Sure in dogfight servers a 190 can make one pass kills routinely if everyone is swirling round like flies on the deck (as per usual). But in a proper fight the 190 doesn't climb as well as the 109 and there were plenty of contemporary aircraft that could out climb it. The 190 had to stick to slashing attacks and using it's speed to run away which is only well and good if you are at some altitude advantage.

I was playing it from the beginning, demo days.

Sure some stuff like being hit from rear gunner at 1k distance (you could actually saw the green tracer hitting ya) were there.

 

Unthinkable in the current situation. IL-2 has evolved heavily but it never stopped to favour cannons really.

These days it's about DM or perhaps lack of detailed DM lack of things you can damage and destroy with 7,62.

 

You could easily pump up Rata, Tchaika or Lavochkin with 200+ 7,62 and sometimes they would fly away whereas IRL we all know that his chances to fly away were rather slim to say at best.

Nowadays Rata is much more fragile, Tchaika too. Lavochkin still seems to be quite sturdy...

 

Anyhow this FM/DM/weapon effectiveness debate doesn't seems to be adequate here. I hope that we will see some really nice stuff in BoS and given the awesome experience with RoF I'm sure we will :cool: .

 

FW-190 along with LA-5 belong to this game.

As  71stMastiff pointed out it's on the server side whether it will allow those planes or any other for that matter.

FW-190, LA-5 and P-39 plays vital role in Kuban operations, equally interesting so I hope we will see Cobra in game ASAP too :cool: .

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I just can't believe all the people who are dead certain the 190 is a war winning game changer. I would take an Emil over any 190.

...but I'm sure I'm not the only 109 addict here.

I would take a fw190A4 over a bf109K.. and I always did that in  il2 servers.  

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