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The inverted UNLOCK

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I'm really starting to think that the only answer for our hobby is the endless modding of rapidly aging sims from a bygone age.  Sad.

 

For the immediate future, sadly you are probably right - longer term, I am not so sure . We have thought the genre was pretty much dead before, then along comes someone willing to develop... sometimes what starts out as small modding teams can turn into developing companies. Never know what the future might bring.

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Despite some doom and gloom, it's nice to read a couple of thoughtful well-reasoned posts, with a minimum of the silly "He's dead to me" type of thing.

 

Personally, I do like the "extended-QMB" scheme of the campaign (which is really the wrong word). For me, the missions are often interesting, varied, and fun. And frustrating and repetitive. I think some of the logic or whatever it is could be refined. For instance, I think there should be minimum points loss for superficial damage. If an aircraft is flyable (601-flyable! - Ahem, a Tangmere Pilots in-joke) on RTB it should get more points than a forced landing, etc.

 

But I think the "campaign" is a welcome addition to the QMB. I hope it is developed further, and coop versions of the missions are able to be generated. I think this would make the sim very easy and fun to use in SP and MP.

 

I suppose I'll also finally cave and admit that the unlocks, in as much as they matter (and I still can't understand why they seem to have ruined - Ruined, I say! - some people's simming lives), should be earnable in MP and perhaps the QMB! It should be possible to assign lots of XP for, say, a QMB DF vs 4 ace opponents, but very few for a DF 1 v 1 with a rookie (my style of QMB), with variation of XP depending on difficulty options, etc.

 

But even if the unlocks are anathema to some, it's still a damn fine sim, and a bunch of fun! Some squad-mates and I had a riot last night on a Russian server of some description, trying and mostly failing in Jabo raids against a well-defended bridge. It was great. Totally routine, nothing special but great fun! Then a couple of Yaks showed up and even the resultant carnage was fun!

 

The unlocks, such as they are, or even the (unnecessary?) restrictions on graphic options aren't the end of the world for this sim. There's already a ton to enjoy. And I can't wait for the FMB, hosting, more SP campaigns, reforms to the unlock system, expansion of the "campaign engine" and soon expansion to other theatres!

 

Wouldn't it be nice to have a functioning BoB sim?  :P

Edited by No601_Swallow
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IL2 BoS + no unlock + no position on map in expert mode + dedicated server + FMB = WIN

 

it's easy,but it seems that the dev does not matter, because if they did not understand, well it is serious, but in another sense, these are things that we are already wanting to zero then extra work, and did not understand why the unlock and other small crap but that will destroy the game

 

one thing that is clear is that unlike RoF where there is no choice there clod + TF or DCS ww2 or WT or WoW, choice for everyone in short, and a game that is a cross between a sim and arcade hardly takes hold, there has not already WT but is free ...

we'll see if in 1 year 10 people remain in mp to get slaughtered in df sad to 10m
, already now the MP does not seem 100% of life ...

Edited by mb339pan

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IL2 BoS + no unlock + no position on map in expert mode + dedicated server + FMB = WIN

 

 

 

IL2 BoS + reformed unlocks + lots of server difficulty options + dedicated server + FMB = WIN !

 

Well we are guaranteed all except one of these, and I'm sure the unlocks will be dealt with, erm, eventually!  :wacko:

 

Personally, I think the future's bright, and I'm really looking forward to my squadron transitioning over from its present mod-based fusion-powered sim of choice.

 

And I know the Devs will give me my Macchi 205 Veltro eventually. I know it...

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IL2 BoS + no unlock + no position on map in expert mode + dedicated server + FMB = WIN

 

Not from a business sense and in a way that will drive the company forward to producing new content way. 

 

For us, yeah sure!  That sounds great.  But sadly, there are not enough of "us" for the genre to continue producing new content. 

 

The question remains, what business model is there that would allow a company to make enough of a profit to keep going? How can enough new players be drawn in to make a difference?

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The question remains, what business model is there that would allow a company to make enough of a profit to keep going? How can enough new players be drawn in to make a difference?

 

The true question is: why have not told immediately that they wanted to make a game that was a cross between IL2 and WT, why they have not told immediately that there would be the unlock?

 

who makes a simulator already know what they are getting: a niche audience, see Silent Hunter series, Combat Mission series, Rise of Flight, Graviteam Tactics, Close Combat series ... etc ...

 

you want a large audience? = Arcade game (CoD, battlefield etc ...)

 

you want a niche? = sim

 

this game will remain niche because in addition to a PC you need a facetrack and a joystick, and why a middle hardly pleases all

a game with unlock similar to WT will not lead to NOTHING!

 

Why? simple, WT is free!

 

I would pay € 100 for a nice simulator, and more money for any aircraft / maps etc ... at present would not pay anything extra for this game.

 

maybe you forgot the site page in EA over a year ago ...

 

 
you sow what you reap, if you put an apple in a container after a month will march, but not because of the poor quality of the fruit ...
 
I forgot: why there are no graphics options on a computer game? in 2014?
Edited by mb339pan

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So, flight sims that require more than a mouse and keyboard are not viable.  I hope you are wrong!

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The true question is: why have not told immediately that they wanted to make a game that was a cross between IL2 and WT, why they have not told immediately that there would be the unlock?

 

 

Mb339pan: I don't understand how you think we "have not been told immediately" about their intentions. Right from the start, in developers' diaries, and in the live-streams, and later in interviews Loft and Jason were absolutely clear that they wanted to appeal to as many people as possible. In other words, they weren't in the business of making a DCS-style study sim, or some PMDG monster. I simply can't see where the deception is.

 

As to whether BoS is "a cross between IL2 and WT, that is a matter of opinion. But for me, it's a hardcore sim. Landing a plane in a 4 m/s wind with 6 m/s gusts is bloody hard, whether you have icons or not. Navigating while under a low cloud base (so long as you don't cheat!) is also really hard! See the single mission for the IL2 (I can't remember what it's called!). I haven't played WT, but I've watched some youtube clips, and to say that BoS is anything like that is merda di toro (caca di miale, non lo so). Absolute rubbish.

 

Personally, though, I find the fun factor (the balance between "realistic" chores and getting out there and making things go boom) dead on. Very much like IL2 of old!

 

For instance, in a well-known WWII flight sim, to start up my 110C4, I have to select "both" starboard fuel tanks (three key strokes), then "both" port fuel tanks. (For some reason I don't have to turn on the magnetos). Then I have to select and start up the port engine, and select and start up the starboard engine. Then I have to select both engines and open my water radiator and my oil radiator. Then I can start. But wait! I haven't turned on my reticle! Now none of this is hard. All of it is routine. It now takes me about four seconds, the whole thing. But it's boring! And don't get me started on the compasses and direction finder in the British planes in the same sim. Yes, it's more realistic (probably) but no, it isn't more fun! (And this is just the stuff that actually works in aforementioned sim!) Also, forgetting to arm your bombs before you drop them in this sim is no fun at all!

 

Anyway, a line has to be drawn somewhere between "simulation" and "playability", I suppose, and I have to say that similar to IL2, for me BoS nails it, more or less. Certainly, when we can set our own difficulty options on MP servers, I'd say it'll be there.

 

But it ain't WT. And to suggest it is, is cecho.

 

(Scusatame. My ex-wife is from Milan, and my Italian is very rusty!)

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Mb339pan: I don't understand how you think we "have not been told immediately" about their intentions. Right from the start, in developers' diaries, and in the live-streams, and later in interviews Loft and Jason were absolutely clear that they wanted to appeal to as many people as possible.

It was not said the unlocks would be gotten through the means of a hollow campaign. Boring and generic enough for people to auto pilot through them. Should that not have set up some red flags? People letting the game play itself because its no fun?

 

Also the fact the campaign was not introduced until the end (at 80%) shows not many had no idea what it was all about. If the developers did not think it was bad it would have been shown in depth earlier. The crapstorm that followed it proof of that.

 

Its the same as telling you I am going to give you $100. Then next week dropping $100 worth of pennies on your head from the 10th floor. Sure, I was honest and upfront about it, you just dont like how I gave it to you. Thats how I feel about the campaign/unlocks.

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It was not said the unlocks would be gotten through the means of a hollow campaign. 

 

Yes, they did.  They specifically told us that the unlocks would be earned in the SP campaign.

Then next week dropping $100 worth of pennies on your head from the 10th floor. 

 

At this point that is how I'm hoping you get your refund.

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So, flight sims that require more than a mouse and keyboard are not viable.  I hope you are wrong!

Welcome to the reality! From a Developer Point of View, a Flightsimulation which requires more than a mouse and keyboard is not viable. It isn't, because of the market change in the last 20 Years.

Look back in the Year 1998, in that year it was nearly mandatory to have atleast a joystick to your pc. Because the Joystick was a great Input Device for a lot of games.

Now we look in the Year 2014, tell me how many Game-Genres are needing a Joystick?

 

And you can go through that List with other Input-Devices too.

Racing Wheels? Gamepads are doing the same, sometimes even better.

Yeah Wheels are mandatory when you go into the Hardcore Simulation branch, like rFactor2 but actually in the most arcade games, a Gamepad is doing a better job.

 

And look we live in a time, where the majority of Gamers are the Children of the gamers lived in the late 80's and early 90's. So the old Spirit of Gaming and Gamedeveloping is simply gone, and the new generation is different. Thats the change of time, and no BoS, no Flight Simulation leaps to another target audience or anything else could change that. Live with it, or gather enough money to make an independent game which don't need financial success. This is the only way to achieve that.

Edited by Stab/JG26_Auva

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Yes, they did.  They specifically told us that the unlocks would be earned in the SP campaign.

 

At this point that is how I'm hoping you get your refund.

Oh so they did say the campaign that is tied to unlocks was boring? They did say lots of people will try to avoid playing it using auto pilot, in order to skip the content? They did say all that?

 

All you are doing is avoiding the reasoning part of it. Trying to be clever, yet not grasping the conversation. You can keep throwing insults, but at least try to understand the content.

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They said the unlocks would be earned in the SP campaign.  Whether or not it's boring is strictly your opinion.  I only play MP, so I find SP "boring" no matter how it's designed or implemented.  But I'm not having a hissy fit about being cheated.  I knew what was coming.  You should have known what was coming.  If you're feeling cheated, it's only due to your own stupidity.

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They said the unlocks would be earned in the SP campaign.  Whether or not it's boring is strictly your opinion.  I only play MP, so I find SP "boring" no matter how it's designed or implemented.  But I'm not having a hissy fit about being cheated.  I knew what was coming.  You should have known what was coming.  If you're feeling cheated, it's only due to your own stupidity.

I should have known the campaign to unlock stuff was bad, and would boring to play? Makes perfect sense.

 

Hissy fit about being cheated? Who are you talking about? Show me where I said I was cheated. Again, fail to grasp what is being talked about. Keep your defender shield up man, you are fighting the good fight.

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Mb339pan: I don't understand how you think we "have not been told immediately" about their intentions. Right from the start, in developers' diaries, and in the live-streams, and later in interviews Loft and Jason were absolutely clear that they wanted to appeal to as many people as possible. In other words, they weren't in the business of making a DCS-style study sim, or some PMDG monster. I simply can't see where the deception is.

we have the best ww2 combat flight sim before us, but there are things that ruin strongly l 'experience: icons on the map in expert mode, unlock  and no graphics options, and currently the limit to 48 slott for mp

 

unlock the not been a problem, but for others, many others are, know what I mean?

 

not attract more people like that, but turn away customers who have purchased the game,

 

I repeat: no IL2 BoS + unlock + no icon in expert mode option + customer = win, FMB and DS will come ...

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Not from a business sense and in a way that will drive the company forward to producing new content way. 

 

For us, yeah sure!  That sounds great.  But sadly, there are not enough of "us" for the genre to continue producing new content. 

 

The question remains, what business model is there that would allow a company to make enough of a profit to keep going? How can enough new players be drawn in to make a difference?

If I remember correctly...or maybe I've misread this...but is it true that our initial "founders" investment money is going to go towards the next phase of this game.  When I put money into the program I really didn't do much research, but my  impression was that the money was needed to jumpstart the Sim.  As far as the future, could it be feasible in their thinking to sell as much as possible in this initial Stalingrad theater before jumping into the next combat phase...say Kuban for example, then sell that at a premium price...and so and and so on....It just seems to me that they left a lot of development to the third party modders and that might be their strategy for every phase....Game, unlocks..blah blah...modders come along and turn it into a sim.  Of course the price drops as the months go bye, but theres always that next theater out there......Kuban, Kursk, etc.....and all selling at a premium price, because how many of us can resist a new theater.....Mind you...just thinking out loud here....

Edited by JagdNeun

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Here is my question that I would like a serious answer to building right off of Swallows' post above:

 

What's the alternative to the unlocks?

 

Some starting points to consider;

 

1.  The old IL2 business model is a non starter.  The Devs have said many times that they can't make enough money to stay in business with that model.  Everyone on the production side of the sim market agrees.  (If there was good money to be made some one would make that game. No one is, no one will. 

 

2.  The Rise of Flight business model will not work.  The Devs have said this many times.  Personally, I like that business model.  But if it can't keep the company solvent for the long term then it can't.  (Why would the Devs lie about this?  If RoF was paying the bills plus a tidy little profit, then why wouldn't they repeat it?)

 

3.  The Free to Play model is currently dominated by War Thunder and it is highly unlikely that an actual sim from a very small company like 777 could knock that king off of the throne.  In fact I would note that War Thunder dumped its sim lite version if I read correctly.

 

So, why not try a little of all three?  There is a perfectly useable stand alone game that you can use right out of the box.  There is a limited buy a plane option (ala Rise of Flight) and an unlock version that would maybe entice some of the war thunder crowd.  Especially those who were ticked off at the lack of the more sim experience in WT.

 

If you think this business  model is stupid, great!  What is your alternative?  I would truly like to know, I was not a big fan of the unlocks at all but I for one can not come up for a way to get out of the box that combat flight sims seem to be in.

 

Anyone?

 

God post.  As far as the business model goes the unlocks IMO should have been done with the ability to do them in an online SP campaign or on MP. That would have solved most of the issues right there. The folks who prefer MP would still have been able to grind it out and they would have even had more incentive to fly in MP other than the sheer fun of it.

 

My alternatives that I am having a lot of fun with currently, in order of my personal preference. I would also note I only do single player. Understand this is only what works for me, I realize they are not for everyone and am certainly not saying they should be. After the introduction of the SP system in BOS, this is what I have gone to.

 

1: TF Cliffs

2: IL2 1946 4.12.2 Modded with HSFX 7. Yes the graphics are dated, but the depth is there that I really like. Currently having fun with a Pacific DCG Campaign.

3: Rise of Flight - while I have not flown it lately, I am going to be off for most of the rest of this month beginning Monday, due to medical reasons. I hope during this time to finally get to continue on my career with ROF, and try out Pat Wilson's Campaign generator. While my preference is WWII, they did such a good job with ROF I find it quite a lot of fun.

4: DCS - hope to spend some time learning how to fly the P51.

 

So in my case, for me, I have plenty to keep me occupied over the upcoming weeks.  As for the reason I am still here - obviously I still own BOS and while I may not currently be playing it, I am still interested in it and I still try to remain hopeful that something might change at some point that brings me back into it.

 

All good choices for sure.. but for me none of this has made BoS unplayable.. It is just lest fun for me because I have this need to get the full sim I bought and I can only do that through unlocking the additional content (the rub) .. but it is still an enjoyable product and I don't feel cheated.

 

Right but Cliffs was a business disaster, no one is making a dime off of IL2 and the Rise of Flight model can't sustain a company.  The only possibility above for new material is the DCS study sim idea.  I doubt that is what most of us want going forward.

I'm really starting to think that the only answer for our hobby is the endless modding of rapidly aging sims from a bygone age.  Sad.

 

..... :mellow: yeah ...

 

The problem is that they introduced this unlock system in a such a wrong way, that it killed it's purpose and the only thing it did was to piss off most of the players.

 

Look closely how unlocks are done in most other games. two ways to play the game: pay or grind, or a LOGICAL combination of the two. In BOS they are bringing now the "grind" version,(in Russia first), but the two paid versions, including the premium one, are a grind fest, witch defeats the purpose to pay for it.

 Now on top of that, they didn't bother making the unlock in a way that everyone can do their grinding, while playing their favorite way of playing: offline career, online, with expert settings, normal, or anything in between. The truth is they got cheap when they implemented this grindfest, and forced it to be done in such a narrow way ( only offline career, and only two difficulty settings), that the vast majority of people are forced to play in different way that they usually play.

 

 Another problem is that, the game is implemented in a way that falls through the gap between the "simmers" and casual gamers, without being able to satisfy either side. The unlocks, lack of graphics customization, poor campaign, are not liked by simmers and the advanced flight model, lack of manual and not very intuitive controls settings scares the gamer away too. 

 They way it's done now, it won't survive. this is pretty obvious, by now to anyone.

 

Those are my biggest issues.. but I do think it will survive. I just think that it will not do as well as it could have. BoS could have really blown the doors wide open in the WWII sim genre.. There will always be detractors... there were folks who from day one and almost at every DD still had nothing but negative things to say about the sim..

 

this simulator is dead becouse of unlocks, only arcade game ramaining. it is sad but it is true, the game ruined itself just before comercial release :D until that it was good product serving fun to cunstomers

 

im not frustrated anymore that i wasted 100usd, just experience for future how to deal with this company...we all know now how they react on customers feedbacks,pools, login/mp server stats, etc...im back in atag mod of cod with freedom of choice

 

i also expecting post deletion :D

 

maybe game will get fixed in the future ,. thats only thing what we can wish now ;)

 

First of all... This sim is not dead... :soldier: it is not even complete yet... It may not be what it could have been but it is certainly not dead and still an enjoyable sim.

 

Secondly .... why would you make a post expecting it to be deleted? What are you just trying to stir up stuff? I mean really man... What is that about? Don't do that .. because then I will have to come to the conclusion that you really don't want to participate in the discussion.. you just want to stir the pot.. and that will not be tolerated so you need to consider all your other posts very carefully from here on out.

 

Thank you for your cooperation.

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Oh so they did say the campaign that is tied to unlocks was boring? They did say lots of people will try to avoid playing it using auto pilot, in order to skip the content? They did say all that?

All you are doing is avoiding the reasoning part of it. Trying to be clever, yet not grasping the conversation. You can keep throwing insults, but at least try to understand the content.

 

Yes but for many the "boring" campaign is not bad.. and also it is a temporary thing regardless.

 

They said the unlocks would be earned in the SP campaign.  Whether or not it's boring is strictly your opinion.  I only play MP, so I find SP "boring" no matter how it's designed or implemented.  But I'm not having a hissy fit about being cheated.  I knew what was coming.  You should have known what was coming.  If you're feeling cheated, it's only due to your own stupidity.

 

DD 19 was one of them I believe. BSR you have mail.

 

It was not said the unlocks would be gotten through the means of a hollow campaign. Boring and generic enough for people to auto pilot through them. Should that not have set up some red flags? People letting the game play itself because its no fun?

 

Also the fact the campaign was not introduced until the end (at 80%) shows not many had no idea what it was all about. If the developers did not think it was bad it would have been shown in depth earlier. The crapstorm that followed it proof of that.

 

Its the same as telling you I am going to give you $100. Then next week dropping $100 worth of pennies on your head from the 10th floor. Sure, I was honest and upfront about it, you just dont like how I gave it to you. Thats how I feel about the campaign/unlocks.

 

That is flawed reasoning and why is it that you and others seem to continue to see this nefarious ulterior motive in all this... Maybe the campaign was not introduced because the sim was just not ready for it or it was not done... These are the kinds of posts that need to stop. Expressing your feelings on what BoS is is one thing but when you make statements like this you start crossing lines and stating your opinion as fact.. and it is just your opinion.. The crapstorm that followed is proof of no such thing.  All that proves is that they made a bad decision or perhaps misjudged their audience. 

 

If I remember correctly...or maybe I've misread this...but is it true that our initial "founders" investment money is going to go towards the next phase of this game.  When I put money into the program I really didn't do much research, but my  impression was that the money was needed to jumpstart the Sim.  As far as the future, could it be feasible in their thinking to sell as much as possible in this initial Stalingrad theater before jumping into the next combat phase...say Kuban for example, then sell that at a premium price...and so and and so on....It just seems to me that they left a lot of development to the third party modders and that might be their strategy for every phase....Game, unlocks..blah blah...modders come along and turn it into a sim.  Of course the price drops as the months go bye, but theres always that next theater out there......Kuban, Kursk, etc.....and all selling at a premium price, because how many of us can resist a new theater.....Mind you...just thinking out loud here....

 

Yes...that is indeed what was said. I can't remeber whether it was in a DD or a post by Jason but that was what was said. The money to complete BoS was already in place and that the founders money was to fund the next phase. Which makes sense.. if you want to make something sustainable. Otherwise you are building a project from hand to mouth.

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Guys,

 

Come on now, that was not what was said by me or anyone else. The budget for BOS was already agreed to and funding existed to bring the product to release regardless of whether or not we offered any Early Access sales. That means all money during EA went to recouping the initial investment just as if we had waited till commercial release to allow you to buy it. Only after the initial budget is recouped would the product be deemed profitable or any money be earmarked for further work. The Early Access program was us trying to show users that our tech functions, you wouldn't have to wait 7 years to fly it and we can start trying to recoup our initial budget sooner than usual.

 

Jason

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That is flawed reasoning and why is it that you and others seem to continue to see this nefarious ulterior motive in all this... Maybe the campaign was not introduced because the sim was just not ready for it or it was not done... These are the kinds of posts that need to stop. Expressing your feelings on what BoS is is one thing but when you make statements like this you start crossing lines and stating your opinion as fact.. and it is just your opinion.. The crapstorm that followed is proof of no such thing.  All that proves is that they made a bad decision or perhaps misjudged their audience. 

 

 

Then why after the campaign was release did Jason make a post on SIMHQ about how he knew more sim-minded people were not going to be happy with the system? Cant find the post, but it was going into the realm of he knows it was bad, and hopes user made content can help make it the "sim we want".

 

The crapstorm is proof the system (campaign) is not up to par for many people. Look at it like this, if the campaign was fun and interesting, and more people wanted to actually play it, the unlocks thing would not be such an issue. Like upgrades in SH. They make sense, correct time period, and pretty historically accurate. And because the campaign is fun, its not a big deal.

 

Thats my point. If you take everything I say as fact and not opinion I dont know what to tell you. I thought putting IMO after every sentence was not needed, but just to make sure....IMO

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Then why after the campaign was release did Jason make a post on SIMHQ about how he knew more sim-minded people were not going to be happy with the system? Cant find the post, but it was going into the realm of he knows it was bad, and hopes user made content can help make it the "sim we want".

 

The crapstorm is proof the system (campaign) is not up to par for many people. Look at it like this, if the campaign was fun and interesting, and more people wanted to actually play it, the unlocks thing would not be such an issue. Like upgrades in SH. They make sense, correct time period, and pretty historically accurate. And because the campaign is fun, its not a big deal.

 

Thats my point. If you take everything I say as fact and not opinion I dont know what to tell you. I thought putting IMO after every sentence was not needed, but just to make sure....IMO

 

That is not what you said.. What you said was...

 

Also the fact the campaign was not introduced until the end (at 80%) shows not many had no idea what it was all about. If the developers did not think it was bad it would have been shown in depth earlier. The crapstorm that followed it proof of that.

 

That is indeed  YOUR opinion and based on your own perceptions with no basis in fact. As I said all that proves (the crapstorm) is that they made a bad decision or perhaps misjudged their audience. It does not prove in any way whatsoever what you said in the post I quoted. 

 

You are indeed presenting that opinion as fact. Read your own post. I take nothing you say as fact, except for the fact that based on your posts you are not happy at all with the direction BoS has taken so there is no issue there.  If you want to have your posts interpreted correctly then you need to edit them before and/or after you hit send to make sure that what you are posting is what you mean. Posts like the one quoted above will not stand on this forum without a challenge whether they are from you or anyone else.

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