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The inverted UNLOCK

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The inverted unlock!

 

Everyone is not really happy with the unlock system the comments in this forums tend to prove this! So maybe invert the way unlocks are given!

 

Is it not possible to make two changes?

 

1/ in the campaign each unlock should be before a new mission has needed not after it, this is more realistic you need new armaments to finish a mission you get it before the mission! For skins it is not so important and so it makes no difference before or after the missions.

 

2/ at the end of the completion of all stages of the single player campaign all unlocks for all planes are automatic whatever plane or planes the player did fly?!

 

:huh: 

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Possibly a nice idea but at this stage I think it's a bit too late. I think the most likely thing if any will be that they open unlocks for mp and keep it the way it is for sp. Then we will have to wait for fmb and the community for a better campaign

Edited by AeroAce

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still waiting for them to deal this issue.... not playing mp now,, I don't want to be force to play days of SP mission just so that i can load a bomb on my bf-109 in MP..

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I just don't understand why they are being so damn pig headed about this.

The unlocks suck, only slightly more than lack of graphics controls.

Oh well. Zack had mage it clear they don't give a rats hind end for our feedback. I'll be back in a week to see if anything had changed.

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still waiting for them to deal this issue.... not playing mp now,, I don't want to be force to play days of SP mission just so that i can load a bomb on my bf-109 in MP..

 

Seriously, at least be realistic. Factual comments tend to have more value than fantasy. Unlocks are stupid for people that paid $50 or $90 for this, they should be reserved for the low cost grind accounts. But it hardly takes days, or even half a day. I have 50% of the weapons unlocks for just about every plane, some more some less - and here's a screenshot of my profile. Look at the flight hours. And boycotting MP doesn't do anything other than deprive yourself of a lot of fun, and there is a lot of fun in MP when there are people online. You won't show them whose boss by not playing, so just play online - you aren't at any disadvantage and if you desperately want a bomb for the 109 - it'll take you about 30 minutes of short Expert missions doing intercept to get one.

post-9266-0-60082100-1417673136_thumb.jpg

Edited by FuriousMeow

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Dude, they don't care. They want the unlocks because they need them for the micro transaction piece in Mother Russia. They took our $90 to "make it happen, cap'n."

 

At least I have a sweet SP ultra historically based campaign with what did Loft call it, PVE? I have pilots with names and real immersion! If the aircraft was at Stalingrad it's in the game, baby!

 

I mean, immersion:

 

------------------

Stalingrad. December 6.

 

"Wha....was that a 190 that just buzzed the Snowman? Weird I never saw that here before... Anyway, get Misha up in his IL 2 to hit that armor. Make sure he has a tail gunner because he's gonna need it if there are 190s up there now. What? What do you mean it hasn't been unlocked yet? And why is his plane forest green? Is "hasn't been unlocked" some sort of Stalin way of saying we are short on supply (that kooky guy is so funny!)...

 

Oh well, At least next time paint his plane some sort of color roughly approximating the sky on the bottom and ground on the top or those miraculous 190s will have a field day.

 

Why do you keep giving me this "unlock" statement? Get to it and get our guys up there. The fascist diamond tailed invader isn't going to defeat itself (unless they fly on autopilot to get their "unlocks."

 

----------------------

 

Ultra historic baby.

 

Oh. Wait.

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Dude, they don't care. They want the unlocks because they need them for the micro transaction piece in Mother Russia. They took our $90 to "make it happen, cap'n."

 

 

 

 

Do not post unsubstantiated rumor based on speculation as fact on these boards. This is the only warning you will get on this.

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Do not post unsubstantiated rumor based on speculation as fact on these boards. This is the only warning you will get on this.

No problem.  Here's the substantiation (I speak, read and write Russian and have a minor in it) so it appears calling this unsubstantiated is what is really unsubstantiated.  Facts and "the internets" are stubborn things.

 

full-538-92124-devstatement.jpg

Or if you prefer, there's Jason's post.  Perhaps you should ban him.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/12175-russian-version-dvd-2-free-aircraft-true-or-not-jason/

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You probably need some context and a translation for that post to mean anything.

 

http://steamcommunity.com/app/307960/discussions/0/619569341140002921/

 

Here's the link with the context (you can cut and paste to translate it's too much work to type it all and I'm 30 years out of Russian).  Basically, as I say, it confirms the dev choice for the Russian sales was to give two planes, with the player being able to choose either to grind with their "time and ability" to get the unlocks or choose to use their money to get the unlocks.

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That isn't exactly a newsflash.  We already knew that there would be a discount version of the game for the Russian market.  

 

However, he's not saying anything about users being able to buy the unlockable mods and skins.  He's talking about unlocking the planes or buying the more expensive versions of the game.

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That isn't exactly a newsflash.  We already knew that there would be a discount version of the game for the Russian market.  

 

However, he's not saying anything about users being able to buy the unlockable mods and skins.  He's talking about unlocking the planes or buying the more expensive versions of the game.

Good God, you described the drive behind microtransaction... you have the choice: Buy the stock game with 2 Planes and grind your way to the rest OR invest money to have them already...

 

Helloooo thats the core concept between Microtransactions... let the customer pay for something which is repetetive and timeconsuming... AND GUESS WHAT! The BoS Campaign is BOTH!

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It's nothing of the sort.  There are 3 versions of the game.  2 planes with the option to grind for 6 more, 8 planes, and 10 planes.  Only on planet HQCrazytown is that "microtransactions".

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It's nothing of the sort.  There are 3 versions of the game.  2 planes with the option to grind for 6 more, 8 planes, and 10 planes.  Only on planet HQCrazytown is that "microtransactions".

Oh wait oh wait oh wait...

so you say there are 3 Versions of the game right?

1 Version with 8 Planes + 2 DLC Planes/Premium Planes.

1 Version with 8 Planes

aaaaaaand 1 Version with 2 Planes only for a fifth of the price, but you have to grind for the other 6 planes...

 

So essentially you have 3 choices... pay 90$ for 8+2 Premiumplanes...

pay 50$ For 8 Planes

or pay 12$ for 8 planes, but you have to invest a couple of hours to get the other 6 planes... but for investing 38 $ more you get essentially the same but without the time investment, which you have to do anyway because unlocks...

 

Yeah for sure, nor "microtransaction" policy... nope I don't see any coincedence here.. man..... how can I be so blind. Atleast the customer don't have the option to pay for accelerating the progress here...

Edited by Stab/JG26_Auva
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It's nothing of the sort.  There are 3 versions of the game.  2 planes with the option to grind for 6 more, 8 planes, and 10 planes.  Only on planet HQCrazytown is that "microtransactions".

You just described micro transactions. Same thing in Planetside2, GuildWars 2, etc. etc. The only difference is this game is not free to play. Same concept man....

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Oh wait oh wait oh wait...

so you say there are 3 Versions of the game right?

1 Version with 8 Planes + 2 DLC Planes/Premium Planes.

1 Version with 8 Planes

aaaaaaand 1 Version with 2 Planes only for a fifth of the price, but you have to grind for the other 6 planes...

 

So essentially you have 3 choices... pay 90$ for 8+2 Premiumplanes...

pay 50$ For 8 Planes

or pay 12$ for 8 planes, but you have to invest a couple of hours to get the other 6 planes... but for investing 38 $ more you get essentially the same but without the time investment, which you have to do anyway because unlocks...

 

Yeah for sure, nor "microtransaction" policy... nope I don't see any coincedence here.. man..... how can I be so blind..

 

I guess we have different definitions of "micrtransactions", but 3 versions of the game does not seen like "microtransactions" to me.  If calling this "microtransactions" is what it takes to stoke your outrage, go for it...

the only difference is this game is not free to play. Same concept man....

 

LOL, So the "only difference" is pretty much the defining feature of a microtransaction game...

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I guess we have different definitions of "micrtransactions", but 3 versions of the game does not seen like "microtransactions" to me.  If calling this "microtransactions" is what it takes to stoke your outrage, go for it...

 

LOL, So the "only difference" is pretty much the defining feature of a microtransaction game...

Actually "lol" no. I forgot Guild Wars 2 has an initial price as well. So exactly the same. Thanks.

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No problem.  Here's the substantiation (I speak, read and write Russian and have a minor in it) so it appears calling this unsubstantiated is what is really unsubstantiated.  Facts and "the internets" are stubborn things.

 

full-538-92124-devstatement.jpg

Or if you prefer, there's Jason's post.  Perhaps you should ban him.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/12175-russian-version-dvd-2-free-aircraft-true-or-not-jason/

 

You probably need some context and a translation for that post to mean anything.

 

http://steamcommunity.com/app/307960/discussions/0/619569341140002921/

 

Here's the link with the context (you can cut and paste to translate it's too much work to type it all and I'm 30 years out of Russian).  Basically, as I say, it confirms the dev choice for the Russian sales was to give two planes, with the player being able to choose either to grind with their "time and ability" to get the unlocks or choose to use their money to get the unlocks.

 

That deals with microtransactions which was discussed and mentioned on this very forum. That is not the unsubstantiated rumor I am referring to.  None of that translates into this:

 

 

 

Dude, they don't care. They want the unlocks because they need them for the micro transaction piece in Mother Russia. They took our $90 to "make it happen, cap'n."

 

That insinuates intent...  not only intent but intent to rip us (founders) off in order to fund the project in Russia.. and you don't know that ..  You are indeed spreading unsubstantiated rumor, your opinion of what you are reading. Not only that, from the beginning , from my understanding BoS was funded... the money we spent on it was going toward the next phase of it... but they had the capital to finish what we now have.

 

So you either back off from this train of posting or clarifyu whaty you mean  or you will not be posting here unless you can substantiate the insinuation of ill intent .

 

 

 

 

Just pretend your in Stalingrad circa 1944 when it comes to free speech here.

 

 

There is no free speech here. There is no free speech on any forum.

 

You cannot say whatever you want to say and not be able to back it up, slander the developers and insinuate that they intentionally ripped off everyone on this forum who bought into BoS early so they could fund their project in Ruissia.

 

Now if you want to speculate that perhaps this is why the grind cannot be removed, why it is so imbedded in the code.. that is another sort of speculation all together... but that is not the unsubstantiated speculation I am referring to.. what I am referring to is:

 

 

Dude, they don't care. They want the unlocks because they need them for the micro transaction piece in Mother Russia. They took our $90 to "make it happen, cap'n."

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You won't show them whose boss by not playing, so just play online - you aren't at any disadvantage and if you desperately want a bomb for the 109 - it'll take you about 30 minutes of short Expert missions doing intercept to get one.

So it is not 5-9 hours per plane like the SimHQ review says?

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Mac, to get everything for each plane would take a few hours. Probably more like 3-6 hours. I got all the bombs and the 20mm cannons for the 190 in a little less than three hours. Also, a little more than half of the skins as well. I flew complete missions including landings with no 2x speed or auto pilot. If you just want to bomb up an aircraft or get a few skins you can do that in an hour or two.

Edited by HerrMurf

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Mac, to get everything for each plane would take a few hours. Probably more like 3-6 hours. I got all the bombs and the 20mm cannons for the 190 in a little less than three hours. Also, a little more than half of the skins as well. I flew complete missions including landings with no 2x speed or auto pilot. If you just want to bomb up an aircraft or get a few skins you can do that in an hour or two.

 

 

That sounds about right for fighters, but bombers will take a lot longer. Now, if you are unlucky enough and do the bombers last, when you get to high "pilot level", the enemy AI (air and flak) will pretty much prevent you from unlocking them.

 

This is what I unlocked in Seven bloody long hours:

 

He111---------- fully unlocked

FW190--------- mostly unlocked,  I didn't bother with the last skin

BF109G2 ----- up until I unlocked both Romanian Skins.

 

That's it. No il2, no F4, no Stuka. Nothing. It was such a crappy experience, I don't know if I'll bother unlocking anything else. this means online I can't be bothered anymore to balance the teams, since I have nothing unlocked for the Russian side. I used to enjoy taking up the il2 or the Lagg, to balance the teams, but now I don't bother anymore. If the teams are not balanced I just leave. I didn't bother going back online for the past month. I did maybe two-three qmb quick sorties since.

 This unlock system is such a killjoy, I'm not interested to buy new planes, when they are going to be available. What for, just to have to do that bullshit again??

 

No, thanks. I can think of a hundred other things I'd rather spend my money on.

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That sounds about right for fighters, but bombers will take a lot longer. Now, if you are unlucky enough and do the bombers last, when you get to high "pilot level", the enemy AI (air and flak) will pretty much prevent you from unlocking them ...

 

The level of pilot that dictates difficulty of mission is so funny idea, what will happen when/if they release new airplane and campaign for it, or new teater, you'll be stuck on max level of difficulty for all time in new campaigns, that will be fun as hell  :lol:

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So it is not 5-9 hours per plane like the SimHQ review says?

 

No, its not. I posted a screenshot of the progress of each plane I've made in the campaign. It also has the total campaign flight hours I've done. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish with that statement, but the facts are right before you in a screenshot in this very thread.

Edited by FuriousMeow

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Com`on Bearcat. Are you seriously suggesting unlocks etc haven't been in the developers plans from day one? 

 

They have known this all along and yet they kept it under wraps all through the critical early access sales period because they know a lot of people wouldn't have paid 50/90 bucks if they v known. In my book that's deliberately deceiving people. 

 

Saying people break forum rules just because the devs doesn't admit what every one knows is very convenient isn't it.

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No, its not. I posted a screenshot of the progress of each plane I've made in the campaign. It also has the total campaign flight hours I've done. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish with that statement, but the facts are right before you in a screenshot in this very thread.

It was meant to confront the two statements, why is there a rather big time difference.

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invert unlock: play MP for unlock SP, are you happy?

Edited by mb339pan

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Com`on Bearcat. Are you seriously suggesting unlocks etc haven't been in the developers plans from day one? 

 

They have known this all along and yet they kept it under wraps all through the critical early access sales period because they know a lot of people wouldn't have paid 50/90 bucks if they v known. In my book that's deliberately deceiving people. 

 

Saying people break forum rules just because the devs doesn't admit what every one knows is very convenient isn't it.

What in the world are you talking about? Why would I say that? That is not what I am saying at all. Unlocks have been known since at least DD 19. You should really make certain that you understand what is being discussed before you jump into a conversation.

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I was referring to this. I was only giving a different reason as to why they did what they did.

 

 

You cannot say whatever you want to say and not be able to back it up, slander the developers and insinuate that they intentionally ripped off everyone on this forum who bought into BoS early so they could fund their project in Ruissia.
Edited by Baron

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Honestly, as I read the dozens (? I can't be bothered to check) of developers' diaries and watched the youtube interviews and listened to the livestreams in which they talked about the bleedin' unlocks, my impression was that they thought they were implementing something that would be fun and challenging and - if you will - a unique selling point for the sim. 

 

Achievements! Yaaay! Online stats to compare and compete! Hurrah! Cool skins to parade online! Yeah!...

 

If you want to add a bit of "gameplay" to a high-fidelity sim (if you want to expand the potential of the sim, introduce a wider audience, etc), it must be quite hard to find a way of achieving that.

 

Whether or not you like what they've tried (and obviously many - perhaps most - on this forum don't), you've got to at least give them a bit of kudos for trying something new and creative. Or so I'd have thought. Mad wild-eyed conspiracy theories are all well and good, but they usually end up making their advocates look, well, insert your adjective-of-rationality-deficiency here.

Edited by No601_Swallow
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Here is my question that I would like a serious answer to building right off of Swallows' post above:

 

What's the alternative to the unlocks?

 

Some starting points to consider;

 

1.  The old IL2 business model is a non starter.  The Devs have said many times that they can't make enough money to stay in business with that model.  Everyone on the production side of the sim market agrees.  (If there was good money to be made some one would make that game. No one is, no one will. 

 

2.  The Rise of Flight business model will not work.  The Devs have said this many times.  Personally, I like that business model.  But if it can't keep the company solvent for the long term then it can't.  (Why would the Devs lie about this?  If RoF was paying the bills plus a tidy little profit, then why wouldn't they repeat it?)

 

3.  The Free to Play model is currently dominated by War Thunder and it is highly unlikely that an actual sim from a very small company like 777 could knock that king off of the throne.  In fact I would note that War Thunder dumped its sim lite version if I read correctly.

 

So, why not try a little of all three?  There is a perfectly useable stand alone game that you can use right out of the box.  There is a limited buy a plane option (ala Rise of Flight) and an unlock version that would maybe entice some of the war thunder crowd.  Especially those who were ticked off at the lack of the more sim experience in WT.

 

If you think this business  model is stupid, great!  What is your alternative?  I would truly like to know, I was not a big fan of the unlocks at all but I for one can not come up for a way to get out of the box that combat flight sims seem to be in.

 

Anyone?

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If you think this business  model is stupid, great!  What is your alternative?  I would truly like to know, I was not a big fan of the unlocks at all but I for one can not come up for a way to get out of the box that combat flight sims seem to be in.

 

Anyone?

 

My alternatives that I am having a lot of fun with currently, in order of my personal preference. I would also note I only do single player. Understand this is only what works for me, I realize they are not for everyone and am certainly not saying they should be. After the introduction of the SP system in BOS, this is what I have gone to.

 

1: TF Cliffs

2: IL2 1946 4.12.2 Modded with HSFX 7. Yes the graphics are dated, but the depth is there that I really like. Currently having fun with a Pacific DCG Campaign.

3: Rise of Flight - while I have not flown it lately, I am going to be off for most of the rest of this month beginning Monday, due to medical reasons. I hope during this time to finally get to continue on my career with ROF, and try out Pat Wilson's Campaign generator. While my preference is WWII, they did such a good job with ROF I find it quite a lot of fun.

4: DCS - hope to spend some time learning how to fly the P51.

 

So in my case, for me, I have plenty to keep me occupied over the upcoming weeks.  As for the reason I am still here - obviously I still own BOS and while I may not currently be playing it, I am still interested in it and I still try to remain hopeful that something might change at some point that brings me back into it.

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Right but Cliffs was a business disaster, no one is making a dime off of IL2 and the Rise of Flight model can't sustain a company.  The only possibility above for new material is the DCS study sim idea.  I doubt that is what most of us want going forward. 

 

I'm really starting to think that the only answer for our hobby is the endless modding of rapidly aging sims from a bygone age.  Sad.

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Here is my question that I would like a serious answer to building right off of Swallows' post above:

 

What's the alternative to the unlocks?

 

Some starting points to consider;

 

1.  The old IL2 business model is a non starter.  The Devs have said many times that they can't make enough money to stay in business with that model.  Everyone on the production side of the sim market agrees.  (If there was good money to be made some one would make that game. No one is, no one will. 

 

2.  The Rise of Flight business model will not work.  The Devs have said this many times.  Personally, I like that business model.  But if it can't keep the company solvent for the long term then it can't.  (Why would the Devs lie about this?  If RoF was paying the bills plus a tidy little profit, then why wouldn't they repeat it?)

 

3.  The Free to Play model is currently dominated by War Thunder and it is highly unlikely that an actual sim from a very small company like 777 could knock that king off of the throne.  In fact I would note that War Thunder dumped its sim lite version if I read correctly.

 

So, why not try a little of all three?  There is a perfectly useable stand alone game that you can use right out of the box.  There is a limited buy a plane option (ala Rise of Flight) and an unlock version that would maybe entice some of the war thunder crowd.  Especially those who were ticked off at the lack of the more sim experience in WT.

 

If you think this business  model is stupid, great!  What is your alternative?  I would truly like to know, I was not a big fan of the unlocks at all but I for one can not come up for a way to get out of the box that combat flight sims seem to be in.

 

Anyone?

 

The problem is that they introduced this unlock system in a such a wrong way, that it killed it's purpose and the only thing it did was to piss off most of the players.

 

Look closely how unlocks are done in most other games. two ways to play the game: pay or grind, or a LOGICAL combination of the two. In BOS they are bringing now the "grind" version,(in Russia first), but the two paid versions, including the premium one, are a grind fest, witch defeats the purpose to pay for it.

 Now on top of that, they didn't bother making the unlock in a way that everyone can do their grinding, while playing their favorite way of playing: offline career, online, with expert settings, normal, or anything in between. The truth is they got cheap when they implemented this grindfest, and forced it to be done in such a narrow way ( only offline career, and only two difficulty settings), that the vast majority of people are forced to play in different way that they usually play.

 

 Another problem is that, the game is implemented in a way that falls through the gap between the "simmers" and casual gamers, without being able to satisfy either side. The unlocks, lack of graphics customization, poor campaign, are not liked by simmers and the advanced flight model, lack of manual and not very intuitive controls settings scares the gamer away too. 

 They way it's done now, it won't survive. this is pretty obvious, by now to anyone.

Edited by Jaws2002

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this simulator is dead becouse of unlocks, only arcade game ramaining. it is sad but it is true, the game ruined itself just before comercial release :D until that it was good product serving fun to cunstomers

 

im not frustrated anymore that i wasted 100usd, just experience for future how to deal with this company...we all know now how they react on customers feedbacks,pools, login/mp server stats, etc...im back in atag mod of cod with freedom of choice

 

i also expecting post deletion :D

 

maybe game will get fixed in the future ,. thats only thing what we can wish now ;)

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So Jaws, You think their model is viable but just needs a few tweaks?  I think the best idea above would be the allow you to grind online and off.  But would that be enough?  I'm not convinced that unlocks bring in players, any way it's done.  Maybe because I've never gotten into games that use them. 

 

As to graphic presets.  I thought that decision was crazy and I didn't buy for  a second their reasoning that it was a giant time saver for them as without them they would be inundated with people who had broken their game trying to adjust the graphics.  Then came the whole change your name in game problem and I started to think they might be on to something there! 

 

I also wonder if the RoF model would have worked with the larger player base inherent in a WWII game?  RoF started with 4 planes.  Suppose the game shipped with the 109f and the Stuka for  the Germans and the Lagg3 and the IL2 for the Soviets.  Other planes were in the game as ai for sp and available on line for those who bought them.  They could have sold fighters for $15 and the larger multi crew bombers for $20.  I suspect though that the WWII only fan baswe would have screamed "pay to win" so, maybe they were right. 

 

As to the adding unlocks makes this an arcade game crowd, Sorry, I have to disagree.  This was a sim before the unlocks were added and it is now a sim with unlocks.  The basic game didn't change with the addition. It's obvious that we founders (the sim crowd) are not enough to sustain a business any more.  Two failures in a row (if this game ends up being a business failure - I still have hope!) and I think that would do it for our little hobby.

Edited by SYN_Mike77

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It was meant to confront the two statements, why is there a rather big time difference.

All this time posting doesn't make much sense. Way too many variables.

 

I used 16x time acceleration when i was not interested in the missions and when it was still avaliable. After it got locked to 2x, i mostly used that, apart from the actual fighting/attacking period. 

 

Then there is the difference between long and short missions and normal and hard difficulty. And the AAA is getting harder at higher player levels, which makes it much harder to unlock the ground-attack planes. If you fly a long mission with hard difficulty, you can get a lot of XP to unlock or nothing at all if you get killed (for instance, if a friendly wingman flies into you during the landing approach, which happened to me from time to time).

 

In any case, i've 11 hours according to my stats (i'm very sure that's atleast 4-5 hours less than i actually spend on it, because iirc, the flight hours got reset during the first week) and there's still plenty to unlock for me. 

 

I think all things considered, if you really wanted to unlock everything (all skins included) and if you would not use time acceleration, you would need to spend at least 20-25 hours. That's around 5 long, sucessful missions for each plane.

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