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Gambit21

I refuse to spend another dime (after my $45 buy in I think it was) no matter what (if anything) is eventually released at this point.

It's difficult to think of as anything less than a scam.

 

They should get their asses sued off, but the last person that tried lost due to disclaimers etc.

 

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Been a long while since I followed what was going on over at CIG, but i've seen some vids of people trying to play the latest build and just randomly dieing and having to respawn. It amazes me that people are still pledging money after all these years and with the poor, bug ridden quality of what has been delivered so far.

Saw this the other day which had me in stitches :-

FB_IMG_1563235528953.png

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Controversial opinion alert:

 

I think everything is going well.

 

I bought in a few years ago and expect to get a solid game at the end of it.

 

As its still Alpha, I expect nothing from the game expect issues. So, I leave it on my virtual shelf.

 

Once released I will again expect issues after launch, Ill wait until the first major patches hit before I dive in fully.

 

As to the length of development, Im cool with that, especially with a game of Sc's scale and scope.

 

I feel "we" as a userbase are too quick to condemn and *expect* too much way too soon of all devs.

 

Almost every forum Ive been on where a game has an open Alpha (and even completed games), I hear accusations of "lazy devs", "scam", "broken promises", "slap in the face" etc etc ad nauseum.

 

And 99.99 times out of 100 its simply not the case.

 

SC is a trendy "pile on" and its easy to draw false conclusions/naraives especially as we dont have all the insider knowledge of whats behind the scenes.

 

I think, everyone should cut the SC (and indeed most devs) some slack :)

 

 

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5 hours ago, OrLoK said:

I feel "we" as a userbase are too quick to condemn and *expect* too much way too soon of all devs.

 

I agree to an extent, but Chris Roberts doesn't really help himself. It is he after all who set those early expectations.

 

On the Kickstarter Squadron 42 was scheduled to be released in 2014, then 2015. We had the "Answer the Call" Video coming 2016, now in recent articles it is 2020. When expectations are set by the guy in charge in this way, you can't really blame the backers for taking him at his word.

Those expectations were either outright lies, or gross mismanagement, either way I do not think it bodes well for the game. If CIG do pull it off though and manage to make something special I'll buy it (again) I'm taking everything that CIG say now with a large pinch of salt until then.

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Gambit21
9 hours ago, OrLoK said:

Controversial opinion alert:

I feel "we" as a userbase are too quick to condemn and *expect* too much way too soon of all devs.

 

 

No disrespect...but what?

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sevenless
16 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

The last report from a reputable independent source - Forbes Magazine - described the current state of SC development as "incompetence and mismanagement on a galactic scale". Says it all, really. Maybe the $242 million or whatever it is the 'citizens' have coughed up so far will result in an actual game one day, but I wouldn't get your hopes up for it being worth the money spent.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattperez/2019/05/01/exclusive-the-saga-of-star-citizen-a-video-game-that-raised-300-millionbut-may-never-be-ready-to-play/amp/

 

I really wonder if that game(s) ever get released. As far as I have understood those are 2 games? Squadron 42 and Star Citizen ?

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Salutations,

 

This coming from a kickstarter backer way back in (cough) 2012, Squadron 42 is going to be a separate Single Player game and Star Citizen is going to be a Multiplayer Online Universe. 😑

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On 7/20/2019 at 8:37 PM, Gambit21 said:

 

No disrespect...but what?

*we* (as users) are often very harsh to devs.

Im not really sure how else to say it :)

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AndyJWest
1 hour ago, OrLoK said:

*we* (as users) are often very harsh to devs.

Im not really sure how else to say it :)

 

And in this case, such 'harshness' is amply deserved. The entire history of SC is one of wild claims about things which have 'never been done before' and clearly aren't going to be done at all, of unfulfilled (and often contradictory) promises, of missed deadlines, and of 'alpha'/'beta' releases which don't contain the features that were listed as being due only months before. Other developers miss deadlines, certainly. They also frequently have to revise their plans as to included features. This is normal. What isn't normal however is the developer taking $200,000,000+  from paying customers, many years in advance of any delivery. If an established developer tried to pull such a stunt, the gaming community would be up in arms, and I very much suspect that law enforcement would become involved. For some strange reason however, Chris Roberts seems to have been given a free pass by sections of the Star Citizen backers, who not only ignore the missed deadlines and broken promises, but then try to rewrite history in order to hide the evidence. 

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Gambit21
18 minutes ago, Brano said:

It's a cult, Andy 😁

 

Apparently so.

No offense to OrLock who I’m sure is just new and ignorant of the history.

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simfan2015

The effort that is needed to create what is promised can IMHO almost be compared to a moon landing !

But I don't really care to pay for the effort and in my case that would be Squadron 42.

It would be worth much more to me than the, say 60 USD, that is normally asked for any game, but surely not thousands of USD.

I paid quite a lot for DCS, much less for all IL-2 modules in fact.

But much more for any game or sim ?  ... I would  most probably not be willing to pay.

But that's quite personal and if other people feel good/better to pay up for whatever may be delivered ... why not !?

I, again personally, can wait for Squadron 42 ... don t care how long it takes ... it's going to be quite unique I'm sure !

Most important I still feel good because I was able to get IL-2 for around 250 USD (sale) ... quite a bargain ... IMHO.

Creating this kind of software is incredibly time and resource consuming.

OTOH if what I read about Star Citizen contributions is true then, even I, am truly ... amazed.

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Gambit21
48 minutes ago, Brano said:

Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

 

...but do not place your trust in RSI, for verily I say unto you that If thou so doest you have your reward in full.

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AndyJWest
1 hour ago, Brano said:

It's a cult, Andy 😁

 

There is certainly cult-like behaviour from some of the 'citizens', though they only represent a minority of the backers - the majority of which I suspect have written off their 'investment' as a dead loss.

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I must admit, im just expecting 40 quids worth of game at the end of the day.

 

If the devs spend cash on fluffy lamborghinis and pepsi and gardening hoes, im not fussed just as long as at somepoint I *do* get my game.

 

Then again I only spent 20 quid.

 

Its true that I dont follow the news of the game all that closely, nor am I a cultist or a hater.

 

I do wonder though whether all the hate to the dev team is truly justified and if so, why the police are not involved if it is a *scam* etc etc

 

I do think it wont end up being what many folk have imagined theyll get, and there may be many who are dissapointed on initial release.

 

Having been involved on the periphery of other *popular* game development, I do tend to see both sides :)

 

 

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AndyJWest
2 hours ago, OrLoK said:

 

 

I do wonder though whether all the hate to the dev team is truly justified and if so, why the police are not involved if it is a *scam* etc etc

 

 

Criticism of questionable business practices is not 'hate'. As for why the police or other law enforcement agencies haven't become involved so far, crowdfunding is something of a legal grey area at present and clarification will probably only come when legislative bodies decide to take action. Which will probably happen sooner or later, given the way many other over-hyped Kickstarters etc have attracted huge sums of money for products which cannot possibly be delivered (e.g. TritonWaterseer, and other devices that ignore the laws of physics, for a start ). For now, as far as I'm aware, CIG's only legal disputes have been matters of civil law (e.g. the ongoing dispute with CryTek, along with a couple of cases regarding refunds which have proven inconclusive), though that may change.  And even if it doesn't, this over-hyped scope-creep money-pit trainwreck of a 'development' process is hardly the sort of example people in the video games industry should be holding up as an example of how to do anything. Chris Roberts claims to be doing things that have 'never been done before'. I sincerely hope they are never done again...

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LuseKofte

Is it true people selling their starship for a lot of money. 

I bought the most expencive one in the beginning of kickstarter. 

I remember it had two saitek 52? Joysticks inside 

wonder what I can get for it. Those sticks are ancient by now

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simfan2015

I really wonder what they are going to ask for Squadron 42 !?? 60 USD ? 

I paid on Steam (SALE) about 30 USD for (the terrific) arcade-star-shooter ... Eve Valkyrie : Warzone. 

If  Squadron 42 proves as good or better of course then I sure am willing to pay full price for it, but +1.000 USD or so .... no way !

What are you willing to pay ?

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Yes, I don't see myself as a hater just very sceptical. I would still love to see a good game. I bought in during the early months after reading articles about the ship pipe system. Power, CPU, and cooling systems and how all were interlinked, damage to one would carry over to systems on the others and it sounded really great. 

So here we are 7 years after dev started, and they still haven't nailed down space flight and combat, MFD's are still largely place holders, and the things I hoped were coming from my interpretation of reading the ship pipe system are no where to be seen.

 

In a game primarily about space flight and combat, it surely would have made sense to nail that down first and build the rest of the game around it ?

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Cunctator

I belonged to the first adapters, read about Chris Roberts new project even before there homepage was launched. Paid 60 $ for a mid tier package in autumn 2012, within the first month after the crowd funding went live. All I wanted to have was modern continuation of the old Wing Commander games, some epic space combat single player experience.

 

Back then they promised the Squadron 42 campaign for 2014, which seemed like a reasonable time frame after the demo they could show. Also that players could get any ship in game through gameplay alone, without paying extra, as in the Privateer games of old. Once it looked like Star Citizen could revive the entire space sim genre, but at the end it became a victim of it’s own success.

 

Now, 7 years later I am still waiting with nothing in sight. I doubt they have any incentive to actually finish Star Citizen and go back to the normal business model once promised. Why sell a complete game for 60 $ again, when your are accustomed to people paying hundreds of dollars for star ship add ons?

 

They are selling dreams and hopes which I guess will always work. If only the initial crowd funding had been less successful Chris Roberts would have been force to accept money from actual investors that expect a return of investment some day and have some control over development.

 

Star Citizen is the major reason why I don’t like to pre order stuff any more. It’s better to only spend money when the features I want are actually available.

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simfan2015

I personally like to buy some EA games at Steam.

Many of those never materialized, so what ?

I think most Devs have the best intentions, but they simply over-estimated the efforts and skills needed to pull it off !

I am thrilled about the EA prospects of IL-BoBp, TC and FC.

Being able to go thru the development process with the IL-devs alone is already worth it to me. 

Even if those new EA modules would never be finished (which I sincerely doubt will happen) then I would still accept the loss.

SC and Squadron 42 will be published too ... in due time and I will buy it then for sure.

Keep the faith.

Stefaan  

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37 minutes ago, simfan2015 said:

I am thrilled about the EA prospects of IL-BoBp, TC and FC.

 

Well this studio has a track record of releasing quality (at least in my opinion) work and in a timely fashion. Delays are measured in weeks. I far prefer the under promise then over deliver style that we tend to see here, rather than vice versa that we sometimes see elsewhere, so I feel comfortable pre purchasing IL2 content from here.

 

"Rogue System"  Looked like a really promising title. Kind of DCS in space, but the kickstarter barely made the threshold, so it was largely a one man show. He did some really amazing work, and I had hours of fun with what was on offer, but in the end, life gets in the way, the project is put on hold.

I have no doubt that sc / sq42 will eventually be released in some form or other. I do think that both games will turn out to be vastly different to the ones I expected back in 2013. Different, but not necessarily better. CIG has in general made me very wary about kickstarting new projects or early access games in general.

 

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56RAF_Roblex

I put in $40 or the UK equivalent and I got something I could play with and that has been steadily getting better.   I have payed similar amounts for games that I played through to the end and will never touch again but SC will continue to improve & expand.   I have not played it for a while because I am deep into BoX and cannot give my attention to more than one game at a time but I am content to wait as the expense was written off years ago and I am not intending to pay for the additional expansions yet.

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RedKestrel

Incoming rant! This whole thing is kind of a living example of the problems of over-promising, mission creep, and the sunk costs fallacy. Its fascinating and like a car wreck I can't look away from.

I remember when I first heard this was in development. At the time I had a crappy laptop and had just bought the original Wing Commander games in a bundle off of GOG. Looking at the game and what was promised, I was sorely tempted to buy in but did not. I couldn't justify laying down money in a pre-order for a game. Instead, when I was done with the Wing Commander games I picked up Il-2 1946 on GOG (I had played it a bit way back when it was first released and never gotten good at it) and suddenly I was back into flight sims.

At the outset there was the hype, and then inevitably the skeptics, and of course after that the anti-skeptics. I tried to reserve judgement and I figured worst case scenario I would pick it up once it came out for full price.

Every once in a while I dip my toe into the news on this one to keep track of it. My cautious optimism on this one is basically gone.

The planning for this game is basically non-existant. It looks like the kind of game design you get when you have a bunch of 12-year-olds around a table saying "Wouldn't it be cool if you could land the space ship, and then jump out and fight some aliens with a laser gun??" Like, yes, my inner 12 year old thinks that would be really cool. My outer middle-aged dude says "hold on, that is a completely different game requiring completely different animations, programming, and design, and meshing them together seamlessly would be crazy difficult." 

Roberts is very clearly an 'ideas' man. Possibly unpopular opinion here: You never want the ideas guy holding the purse strings. You want the ideas guy to pitch you a fantastic game, then you want the realists to pin him down so that he doesn't fly off the handle and try and make every idea at once. The pitch for Star Citizen is basically "Make a space sim, a flight sim, a first person shooter, a persistent MMO with dynamic economy, and an immersive single-player experience, and do this using an engine optimized for FPS with all the limitations thereof". Its a gamer's wet dream and a project manager's nightmare.

It got the support it did because, as one poster above put it, it was selling the dream. It was tapping into all the nostalgia of the original Wing Commander games. It was seizing on the gamer/simmer's penchant to always imagine a better game, to look at it and say "how hard could it be? X did it before!". Everything would be epic all the time , and all we needed to do was just ignore the 'haters' and industry shills who were saying it didn't look feasible. The money rolled in because nobody was there to tamp down the enthusiasm, and it formed a feedback loop where more enthusiasm generated more money, which generated more features promised for the game, which generated more enthusiasm, which generated more money. Its the perfect example of irrational exuberance. If they had stopped adding features and delivered the original promise the game would probably be out by now.

For what its worth, I don't think this is a scam or a con. I think that Roberts bought into his own hype, the funding and freedom went to his head, and now there's nobody at the top who wants to face the facts. He got the chance to make the game he always wanted to make, and nobody was going to stop him. A million people are throwing money at him telling him he's a visionary. Fans who are invested to the tune of hundreds or thousands (!) of dollars will defend even the most egregious of sins.

Some say that surely there will eventually be a functioning Squadron 42 game and a functioning MMO, even if the features promised aren't there. I would say that this point is massively debatable. The game has already been developed for 7 years. There is only one star system available and its not complete, instead of 100. How are they going to put together 99 more? If there are tools to develop systems more quickly, why aren't they using them right now? Promised game mechanics are either half working, not working, or a twinkle in Roberts' eye. Half of the promised ships are not completed. The single player game is not out despite 5 years of delay. They add new proposed features at a higher rate than they complete ones they promised already.

Now take this: The game has upwards of 500 people working on it - CIG has no other products that I am aware of and therefore no cash flow. The Forbes article someone linked above says their annual wages paid out is $30,000,000. They have five different offices that have to be maintained. They have to buy equipment and keep it running. They have to license software and engines, pay for servers to deliver game updates, pay lawyers, accountants and other fees associated with running a business. They have to pay for marketing. If they are burning through less than 50,000,000 dollars per year I would be shocked. They raised $200,000,000 over the course of the seven year development from crowdfunding. They recently got an investment from some billionaire (apparently for more marketing?) at 46,000,000 dollars. All this basic math adds up to the fact that, barring even more massive outside development, they've got a year or two left before they run out of money. They've got well over 2 years of development left to go. Where does the money come from?

Roberts himself says that if they run out of money, they can finish Squadron42 and the sales from that will bankroll the rest of Star Citizen. But at this point, with a million backers, how many people are left who will buy the game who haven't already pre-ordered it? Probably very few. If you sell the game at $60, you need to sell 500 000 copies just to cover one year of developer salaries, not to mention all the other costs. Realistically, they'd need to sell a million copies or more to get another year of development time for Star Citizen. That's pretty big sales for a relatively niche game. Possibly the biggest issue with selling Squadron 42 as a stand-alone product is the fact that their license from Crytek only covers Star Citizen, and they are currently being sued by Crytek for trying to sell a second game developed on that engine. Either they won't be able to use that engine, or they'll have to settle with Crytek. So more money, more legal fees, and possibly more delays for the game.

And what about long-term support? How are they going to run the servers for the persistent universe? Are they going to charge a subscription fee? Because otherwise they'll have to rely on revenue from new players. And once again, they have the problem that most of the people who will want to play the game have already purchased it. Imagine what happens if Star Citizen finally launches, after nearly a decade of hype, and the servers only run for a year before being shut down. Maybe there's a horde of people waiting for the full game to launch but I have my doubts.

What I think is actually going to happen is they are going to run out of money, dump whatever content they have done onto their player base, then say they've completed the game and walk away. You'll have two half finished buggy games with a tenth of the content promised at a cost of 250 million dollars.

Anyway, no matter what happens its certainly going to be interesting to watch. Someone is going to write a doctoral thesis on this whole thing one day, one way or another.

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simfan2015

Wow RedKestrel, that's one helluva an assessment !

I am even afraid you are ... right at this.

That means I won't be able to buy SC or S42 anytime soon for like 6 USD ? (yeah, "Everspace" was on sale at steam).

Oh well ... we Flight-Simmers are buying +1.000 USD Nvidia RTX cards, 5000 USD gear for DCS & IL-2 anyway ... so let's all donate some more cash to Chris Roberts shall we ?

I would still pay quite some money (really, no joke) to be able to get into the Squadron 42 cockpit after all this excitement ... just to find out if it was all worth it !

But that's just me, YMMV for sure !

 

 

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RedKestrel
57 minutes ago, simfan2015 said:

Wow RedKestrel, that's one helluva an assessment !

I am even afraid you are ... right at this.

That means I won't be able to buy SC or S42 anytime soon for like 6 USD ? (yeah, "Everspace" was on sale at steam).

Oh well ... we Flight-Simmers are buying +1.000 USD Nvidia RTX cards, 5000 USD gear for DCS & IL-2 anyway ... so let's all donate some more cash to Chris Roberts shall we ?

I would still pay quite some money (really, no joke) to be able to get into the Squadron 42 cockpit after all this excitement ... just to find out if it was all worth it !

But that's just me, YMMV for sure !

 

 

As I said, its fascinating, and great to produce the various "what if" scenarios of how this could all shake out. 

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Gambit21
16 hours ago, simfan2015 said:

.. in due time and I will buy it then for sure.

Keep the faith.

Stefaan  

 

See bolded, underlined word below.

 

in due time

 idiom

Definition of in due time

 

: eventually at an appropriate time - I will answer all of your questions in due time.
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10 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

Incoming rant!  

If they don't earn 300+mil from SQ42 release then the persistant universe side won't get finished.. It seems that is what they are planning since currently 80% or more of the work is focused on sq42. They will use everything up just making sq42 and use the profits to take them to finish line on PU.  

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simfan2015

Oh, the ever expanding (?) "persistent universe" myth !?

+1000 fully populated star systems etc. etc.

IMHO if all this is not entirely procedurally generated, how many people would have to kina 'handcraft' such an incredibly vast system ?

I know of procedurally generated No Man's Sky a.o. but that kind of universe was not quite what it was meant to become, was it ? 

If they can finish SQ42 (build upon what they have up till this point) that would at least mean something.

Going by the videos I have on Youtube around SC and S42 I am personally almost convinced at least S42 could become

 the ultimate Space shooter/adventure game !

SC too, if they limit the scope asap.

Thus indeed ... in due time ? 🙂

 

 

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RedKestrel
7 hours ago, TunaEatsLion said:

If they don't earn 300+mil from SQ42 release then the persistant universe side won't get finished.. It seems that is what they are planning since currently 80% or more of the work is focused on sq42. They will use everything up just making sq42 and use the profits to take them to finish line on PU.  

 

 

5 hours ago, simfan2015 said:

Oh, the ever expanding (?) "persistent universe" myth !?

+1000 fully populated star systems etc. etc.

IMHO if all this is not entirely procedurally generated, how many people would have to kina 'handcraft' such an incredibly vast system ?

I know of procedurally generated No Man's Sky a.o. but that kind of universe was not quite what it was meant to become, was it ? 

If they can finish SQ42 (build upon what they have up till this point) that would at least mean something.

Going by the videos I have on Youtube around SC and S42 I am personally almost convinced at least S42 could become

 the ultimate Space shooter/adventure game !

SC too, if they limit the scope asap.

Thus indeed ... in due time ? 🙂

 

 

The big issue with scope reductions or banking on SQ42 to finish the project is that the kickstarter backers were told the project was fully funded, and that Star Citizen would be completed on that budget alone. That is clearly not going to happen. 300 mil in sales for SQ42 is in my mind optimistic. Elite sold 3 million units or so over five years - SQ42 would have to sell something like 5 or 6 million to generate that revenue. Are there that many more space simmers out there wanting a single player game and with the hardware to run it?

And, of course, the lawsuit going on right now puts SQ42's fate in doubt. Launching it as a separate, standalone game violates their contract with CryTek on its face. the same for StarCitizen - they promised they would exclusively use CryTek's engine for the game but they have spoken openly about using Lumberyard from Amazon. They'll probably end up settling for a big sum but so far they haven't settled it. 

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simfan2015

I am pretty sure that if they would be forced to use a different game engine than SC it would be almost impossible to develop in a limited time and also more difficult to maintain.

My guess is that the Dev team(s) are focussed and are familiar with ony/primarily the existing SC engine. If not used it would surely mean a lot more money and resources !!!? 

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Obviously Mr.Roberts is a poor project manager. Untill he steps out from this position, things won't change.

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AndyJWest
20 minutes ago, Brano said:

Obviously Mr.Roberts is a poor project manager. Untill he steps out from this position, things won't change.

 

The only problem is that Roberts isn't accountable to anyone, and is clearly incapable of recognising his own failings. If CIG was a regular company with outside investors providing the majority of the funding, he could be moved aside, as has happened in the past.

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SYN_Haashashin

As far as I see it.. they need a Han in their lives 😂😂😂 Worked with several project managers and he is simply a genius at his work.

 

Haash

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Gambit21
3 hours ago, Brano said:

Obviously Mr.Roberts is a poor project manager. Untill he steps out from this position, things won't change.

 

Yep

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LuseKofte
On 7/22/2019 at 9:12 PM, AndyJWest said:

 

the majority of which I suspect have written off their 'investment' as a dead loss.

Aye thats me but I have to say I felt it was expencive. 

I think I bought in for close to 200$ , maybe less

but not by far

 

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