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Would be interestign to knwo how people intend to turn fight :) I see so many guys turning flat like a truck and complaining after being shot down from a diving 109 with more energy able to cut into his turn.

The Yak has the best turn characteristics ingame, BUT it's superiority to 109s is mostly situational. It pretty much excells the 109 in low speed turn manouvres both horizontally and vertically. It's also the most dangerous stall fighter ingame.

 

Pulling on the stick and hoping to finish an enemy off in 1 turn isn't going to make it. Watch your speed and the enemy, judge how far you have to pull to cut hom or let him overshoot and put yourself slowly but surely behind him.

 

If you do it right and the 109 stays in the fight you'll surely be the victor, not the victim.

Edited by [Jg26]5tuka

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Hold on, once you talk about sustained turn then immediately about running out of energy. What makes sustained turn sustained is that you can stay in it forever.

Indeed. Two seperate things which i clearly seperated in my post.

 

Do i need to make two seperate posts next time to make it not "immediately"?

Edited by Matt

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Or he dived away using his famous manouver we have heard so much about.

 

Or he went into a spiral climb his opponent could not match.

 

Or his wingman shot the Ivan off his tail.

 

Or the Ivan was a lousy shot, expended all his ammo and had to break off.

 

Or he simply outran the Ivan until he gave up.

 

Or he dived into a cloud.

 

Not everything about warfare is one on one dogfighting tactics.

Actually, in warfare very little is about 1v1 dogfight tactics. Fun for a sim, lousy for dying of old age in your bed.

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Indeed HerrMurf, I agree completely. One thing that has always struck me as odd about much of this community is that it claims to desirs realism at all costs when it comes to simulating the FM/DM/CEM of individual planes, but then uses them in a dogfight game setting in which military reality is not just ignored but has to be actively subverted to allow players to get their fix.

 

Mission type MP servers with squadrons playing together and well designed SP campaigns (my personal choice) make a better fist of simulating military operations, but these do seem to be minority pursuits and get little priority.

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At 3:14 we enter a low-altitude turn-fight which eventually gives me the advantage. This seems to confirm what most people stated in this thread, but keep in mind this was at altitude 0, basically. With more room, the Bf109 would have simply dived a fled the fight until he had enough distance to resume attacking me.

 

 

I like your video  :D  that convince :

: don't bring 109 turn with yak  or lagg on the deck  ... this is old rule since IL2 old day

 

I just wonder if your 109 friend use his better speed to extends out of your gun range and start claim turn up to 5000 meter.

do he have a chance to apply a rope drop on you ? that interesting :D

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I just watched your video and to be honest your fight illustrates several flaws in your tactic. First is you can't expect to win a fight with a sustained turn that eventually turned into a vertical turn fight regardless of your aircraft having a better turn ability. You are perfect bait for someone to come across that circle and kill you. Second you didn't use any angles in you fight except for once which you had an opportunity for a snap shot. Third you stayed on the power the whole time and you never even set him up for a scissors and perhaps force and overshoot. By pulling consecutive loops you set your self up for a plane that has better climb. Had you actually backed off your power as you climbed you could have reduced your turn radius as he pulled into you by using "Gods G" and set your self up for at least a snap shot. Lastly if you had a wing man you might not have gotten jumped or at least cleared in the long run.

 

Go back and review your movie and count how many left hand turns you did. I'm also assuming that was AI not an MP fight.

 

I mean no offense but you're making classic beginner mistakes. It's okay as we all go through it.

 

DUDE WHENEVER YOU WANT WE CONNECT ON A SERVER AND WE START A LOW ALTITUDE FIGHT just you and me you cannot escape.... the 109 sustain a much better low speed than the yak and turn faster at high speed.. and in case it loses some energy in a turn it has the power to get back on the yak wich is not the case of the yak.... we tried everything.... None of my friends excaped from me in 109 and I could not escaped none of them in the yak.... I keep scoring on 109 in multi and to be killed in Yak... and what you say is really not true... the only thing that the 109 has difficulty to follow is vertical very short manoevers (tighest looping that u can do).... all the rest... he can follow... on the climb of course and on the dive too... 109 is just far superior and you need to have 2 yaks to kill one ... just like what happened in the reallity in fact...

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I like your video  :D  that convince :

: don't bring 109 turn with yak  or lagg on the deck  ... this is old rule since IL2 old day

 

I just wonder if your 109 friend use his better speed to extends out of your gun range and start claim turn up to 5000 meter.

do he have a chance to apply a rope drop on you ? that interesting :D

 

That's what everybody except my enemy in the video does. Nobody goes into a medium/slow speed turn fight at low altitude. If I turn too fast they just zoom away. If I turn too slow they shoot me. So far I find it very hard to fight using turns.

I think I will try to force head ons from now on. After that, I can choose to go in a turn fight and keep going and escape. Risky, but engaging with spirals, the way I would with Japanese in War Thunder, does not seem to work. 

 

The only way to succeed I've had so far is to start from above, and land as many shots as possible in the first pass. If you miss your first pass, time is against you. The Bf109 will slowly gain energy using its engine, while you slowly lose yours in maneuvers.

Edited by -IRRE-coconut

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Fake head ons are really viable in BoS, but you rly need to know what you're doing. If the enemy has a higher energy level you need to find a way to reduce it, ie with scissors, spirals and barrel rolls.

Turning won't help you as it's no defensive manouvre nor stopping a trained enemy from keeping the advantage over you.

 

It takes time to practise it but once you know how to use it even the Lagg becomes a piece of joy.

Edited by [Jg26]5tuka

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otion. I fly the La-5 and if I see him soon enough I can outrun and out maneuver any German fighter even if for that I loose part of my p

 

Please show me how.... I find the LA5 to be a real pig.

 

I also had the jump on a yak a week or two back (I sadly can't remember the pilot) I had a massive E advantage and usually I would get a kill no problem. Missed on the first pass and got down to get hits in.... a few turns later he was on my tail and got hits on me :( .... he broke to get home and I was soooo angry I turned to chase for revenge..... he promptly turns round and we get into a flat scissors and kills me :wacko: ...... I have a lot to learn. :(

 

btw.... are there any guys that coach acm online?

Edited by DendroAspis

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Redout and blackout are quantifiable limits for humans. More trained they are by today's standards and with G-suits, they can maintain more - but those are actual limits.

 

Fatigue is a completely arbitrary value. It's like taking a game that simulates kayaking. Someone that does it once a week, they won't win anything. Someone that trains every day all day, and they will kick ass. Fatigue is a value that can't be set. Redout and blackout are inherent limits set in the human physical ability. Even without G-suits, there is only so much a trained individual can overcome - and back in WWII, they didn't have the same level of G training that exists today. They had very little level of Gloc prevention training. Hell- back in WWII they thought African Americans brains were ill-equipped to fly freaking planes - so back then, Redout and blackout is a global setting because there was little understanding of it and there was very little training in ways to prevent it.

 

Redout/blackout - makes sense, absolute physical limiits.

 

Pilot fatigue, no - there are too many variables to it.

 

I agree...  There are limits to the amount of "realism" that we can put into what at the end of the day is a game viewed through a monitor on a desk. I have always found it better to take any sim as it is relative to itself than to try to compare it to reality. There were guys who had to practical;ly stand on the rudders of their P-40 during take offs to keep from drifting .. while there were othjers who were taller or bigger or stronger and had no real issues at all.. One consistent standard for black outs ad red outs that is universally applied throughout the sim and tied more to actual virtual speed and G forces regardless to AC is the best way to go with all that. Fatigue is too subjective and after a while would help to take away some fo the fun.

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I find that fatigue modelling is a must, to get somehow more realistic fighting styles.

No highspeed BnZ again and again, no endless dogfights with 5-6 g turns again and again.

Even a standard fatigue profile for everybody would be much better than none.

In game there soon would be very different levels of fatigue for everybody, as the pilots with a soft hand at the controls would last longer as the pilots yanking the stick around.

Also the steering power needed at different speeds is known and differs from one type to the other.

In short, pilots who learn when to yank and when to preserve their power will have a higher survival rate as the pilots always flying at the limit.

Edited by I./ZG15_robtek

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Oculus will fix that.. fatigue has no place here.

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Nice argument, GOZR, now really, why has fatigue no place here, could it be that you would have to change the way that you are flying?

Edited by I./ZG15_robtek

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Cumulative fatigue for pilots...

That would be a great and innovative feature for a flight sim i think...

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No because it would become another source of arguments on how MUCH fatigue...

See Russian pilots are stronger than German pilots because...

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Cure .. Adrenaline.. If you are not tired in front of your PC after fighting for a while in Virtual you are doing something wrong. With Oculus that require you to actually move. it will be double fatigue  etc etc ect better G suit.. eating granola on the morning? coffee ? protein bars than you must maybe design sickness so must chew ginger  cookies or chewing um etc.. with out forgetting vomiting inside your jacket .. so real and must be simulate.. and on .. and on.. So yeas fatigue is great for your MMO or BF4  So yea it's weak to add fatigue in the sim ..  now spend time flying and fighting dogfights in servers and use your Oculus .. you'll get that effect with out any cpu recourse taken .. and all real.. just get a plastic bag next to you.. 

Edited by GOZR

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Cure .. Adrenaline.. If you are not tired in front of your PC after fighting for a while in Virtual you are doing something wrong. With Oculus that require you to actually move. it will be double fatigue  etc etc ect better G suit.. eating granola on the morning? coffee ? protein bars than you must maybe design sickness so must chew ginger  cookies or chewing um etc.. with out forgetting vomiting inside your jacket .. so real and must be simulate.. and on .. and on.. So yeas fatigue is great for your MMO or BF4  So yea it's weak to add fatigue in the sim ..  now spend time flying and fighting dogfights in servers and use your Oculus .. you'll get that effect with out any cpu recourse taken .. and all real.. just get a plastic bag next to you.. 

But only a minority will use Oculus!!!! 

And a generic fatigue simulation is still better than none at all!!!!

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let my quote Erich Hartmanns first commander: fly with your brain, not with your muscles

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let my quote Erich Hartmanns first commander: fly with your brain, not with your muscles

A brain without muscles is pretty useless. 

As I said before, one needs to use his brain to have the muscle power when needed.

It seems that some people would rather have a "sim-light", where unrealistic fights are normal.

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Seriously anyone of you actually knows and felt fatigue in an aircraft ? or you just wanna play Call of Duty with aircraft ?

 

Ok I stop to argue it's just bad.

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I haven't even played online but I see that Yak is better in maneuvering than 109.

It will beat 109 in any kind of WW1 style dogfighting on equal terms.

 

Then again FW-190 in this game still may be the best aircraft in K/D terms, and it feels like an average truck to control in comparison to 109 and Yak (average roadsters).

 

It will always be how you play it, tactics, positioning, common sense, always that over aircraft performance.

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I haven't even played online but I see that Yak is better in maneuvering than 109.

It will beat 109 in any kind of WW1 style dogfighting on equal terms.

 

 

 

 

Hmmmm.....online, you might be in for a bit of a surprise.

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S!

 

 Why even care about flight models? Every FM is just a vision of it's respective creator. Nothing else. Get them right or even close? Dream on. Our feeble machines could not even handle proper stall behaviour or how the airflow changes during high AoA. No matter how "complex" desktop PC FM, it is at best only an approximation and streamlined version of the real deal. Enjoy the "feel" and the game, less pain inflicted :)

+1

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Hmmmm.....online, you might be in for a bit of a surprise.

You may be right.

 

Not that I would "suffer" if it turns out to be true or false, because I don't fly that way nor have any interest on doing so. :)

 

However it's always interesting to prove it with track... flat turning, infinite circles and who stays on whose tail.

 

I have zero interest on instant turning full of energy because for all I know and care Stuka may turn out to be new best in that category.

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Seriously anyone of you actually knows and felt fatigue in an aircraft ? or you just wanna play Call of Duty with aircraft ?

 

Ok I stop to argue it's just bad.

Has any flight sim ever modeled fatigue?

 

My pilot won't be getting tired!

post-1189-0-93870900-1415389565_thumb.jpg

Edited by SharpeXB

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I like your video  :D  that convince :

: don't bring 109 turn with yak  or lagg on the deck  ... this is old rule since IL2 old day

 

I just wonder if your 109 friend use his better speed to extends out of your gun range and start claim turn up to 5000 meter.

do he have a chance to apply a rope drop on you ? that interesting :D

Yeah, but in all honesty LaGG now lives up to its coffin nickname :biggrin: .

 

I enjoyed that LA-5 vs 109 video, but in all honesty 109 missed too many shots and made a flying mistake prior to demise... old dogfighter rule - never reverse your defensive circle move.

 

Nevertheless, superb LA-5 flying.

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There was no G tolerance training in the 40s. Yeah, these days they do - but back in the 40s flight was still very new - as was air combat. They were still designing bombers with the intent of them outrunning fighters in the beginning of the war.

 

Tell that to this guy

Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-2006-0122,_Hans-Jo

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I have zero interest on instant turning full of energy because for all I know and care Stuka may turn out to be new best in that category.

 

  Meet the new boss! :P

 

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Tell that to this guy

 

Please elaborate.

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Please elaborate.

Do not wish to put words into his mouth, but since he is offline, the photo is of Marseille who was said to have developed his own set of physical exercises to help withstand the effects of high-G turns. So the implication was that there was pilot awareness of the need for high-G tolerance training, albeit the execution was haphazard.

 

LizLemon pls correct if I have misinterpreted your post!

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Do not wish to put words into his mouth, but since he is offline, the photo is of Marseille who was said to have developed his own set of physical exercises to help withstand the effects of high-G turns. So the implication was that there was pilot awareness of the need for high-G tolerance training, albeit the execution was haphazard.

 

LizLemon pls correct if I have misinterpreted your post!

Spot on.

 

The claim that g forces werent understood during ww2 is patently false. This issue was being extensively studied prior to the war.

 

Early on pilots noticed that screaming while pulling high g maneuvers improved their g tolerance. This is what led to the development of the grunting m1 maneuver you see pilots still using today. This was something that was taught to american and possibly other allied pilots during the war.

 

As for physical training to resist gs; in the case of the US fighter pilots went through a fairly heavy physical fitness training regime much more intense then their bomber bretheren. Part of its aim was to improve g tolerance.

 

Not sure about other nations but hjm is one case of a pilot developing his own regime. I wouldnt be surprised if plenty of other german and other nations aces did something similar.

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Seriously anyone of you actually knows and felt fatigue in an aircraft ? or you just wanna play Call of Duty with aircraft ?

 

Ok I stop to argue it's just bad.

Matter of fact I have felt fatigue from maneuvering an aircraft. One of the comments from Oskar Boesch is very relevant to this thread.

 

"The best thing about the Focke Wulf, it was a one handed airplane even in hard maneuvers. The Bf-109 required two hands on the stick to do any hard maneuvers."

 

When asked about turn fights, "I got all my victories by outturning my opponent. You just did not do it for very long. Turning continuously at high G would soon leave you exhausted and vulnerable to attack."

 

His statements are backed up by every modern physiological investigation to date. Go look at the USAF standards for centerfuge training to be a modern fighter pilot. They are some of the highest standards in the world. The margin at which "sim" pilots exceed them is ridiculous and in no way "simulates" a human being in a high performance aircraft.

  • Upvote 1

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Spot on.

The claim that g forces werent understood during ww2 is patently false. This issue was being extensively studied prior to the war.

Early on pilots noticed that screaming while pulling high g maneuvers improved their g tolerance. This is what led to the development of the grunting m1 maneuver you see pilots still using today. This was something that was taught to american and possibly other allied pilots during the war.

As for physical training to resist gs; in the case of the US fighter pilots went through a fairly heavy physical fitness training regime much more intense then their bomber bretheren. Part of its aim was to improve g tolerance.

Not sure about other nations but hjm is one case of a pilot developing his own regime. I wouldnt be surprised if plenty of other german and other nations aces did something similar.

Correct.

 

Their knowledge of pilot physiology was not as in depth as it is today but it did exist. Anti-G strain maneuvers and even early G suits came into existence during WWII.

 

Physical fitness does not necessarily directly translate in increased G tolerance according to modern studies for example.

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  Meet the new boss! :P

 

He he, nice. Poor Ju-87s.

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DUDE WHENEVER YOU WANT WE CONNECT ON A SERVER AND WE START A LOW ALTITUDE FIGHT just you and me you cannot escape.... the 109 sustain a much better low speed than the yak and turn faster at high speed.. and in case it loses some energy in a turn it has the power to get back on the yak wich is not the case of the yak.... we tried everything.... None of my friends excaped from me in 109 and I could not escaped none of them in the yak.... I keep scoring on 109 in multi and to be killed in Yak... and what you say is really not true... the only thing that the 109 has difficulty to follow is vertical very short manoevers (tighest looping that u can do).... all the rest... he can follow... on the climb of course and on the dive too... 109 is just far superior and you need to have 2 yaks to kill one ... just like what happened in the reallity in fact...

No need to "dude" Stubing. He took the time to look at your video and point out your obvious flaws in tactics, which are quite obvious when looking at the clip. I would listen to his advice and take his comments for what they are: well meant critique... Instaed of jumping the defensive gun and "dude" to the right and left.. Respect.

  • Upvote 1

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No need to "dude" Stubing. He took the time to look at your video and point out your obvious flaws in tactics, which are quite obvious when looking at the clip. I would listen to his advice and take his comments for what they are: well meant critique... Instaed of jumping the defensive gun and "dude" to the right and left.. Respect.

Just to set things straight, I posted the video, dartag quoted me and put his text into the quote by mistake.

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A G model is a speed beast compared to an F and suffers a lot in the turn but that guy actually managed to keep you busy for 4 minutes... *sigh*... in a knife fight.

 

Can't hear any engine use nor flaps use on your cockpit, but then after the 2 minute mark I was betting on the 109, especially when he got such good defense maneuvers he almost got you lead in.

 

Just my view on it.

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