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Hi people,

 

 

I Have been playing this game since sometime now and I have noticed, probably as most of you guys, that there is an important problem in it.

The superiority of German fighters is ridiculous. I have no doubt in there superior climbing  and speed capacities. Like I swear I would prefer to fly one of this 109s if my life was on the line cause they climb fast and high and fly at incredible speeds and these are the main keys to victory in the dogfight art, not mentioning the escape possibility in case of error.

 

Nevertheless, I have been searching and there is noplace, no book, no article I have ever read that mentionned 109's superiority in turn fights over the Yakovlev babies.... Quite the contrary....

 

So what I don't understand here and that I want explanation for is the following. diving on an already fighting 109 and starting a diving spiral, there should be no chance for that crazy german pilot to find himself behind me. the Yak turn rate is superior and the only option for the 109 should be to runaway.... but in this game, with the current flight model, no pb.... after losing 1,000m, slowly diving into defensive spiral the 109 find itself behind the yak..... WTF ? not mentioning low speed manoeuvers ..... how come I can never turn this hard that a 109 has to lose and go straight ???

 

let's make it clear I am not talking here about equilibrating the game or whatever gamer consideration... I am just talking about the pursuit of the correct flight model. Turn fight bellow 3000m MUST be at the advantage of the yak when starting the fight in the same or almost the same conditions as the 109. this is how it was and although I was not fighting at that time I guess that Erich Hartmann did not apply sistematically his 4 steps technic for no reason.... He must have know some how that he could lose turnfighting with other planes and this was the reason he never did....and also the reason he never got shot.... nothing to do with flying a UFO....

 

 

I really am interested in knowing if there are other players agreeing with me and especially if the developpers are thinking that indeed there might be a problem in the flight model ???

 

 

 

Regards

 

 

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Nice variation from the 'the devs are biased against German aircraft'-crowd. When both 'sides' make claims like these, it's usually a sign, that the FM does it more or less right ;)

 

Btw: the Yak does outturn the 109 at lower altitudes. But if you burn all your energy and try to turnfight a 109 with its better powerloading and automatic slats at 200km/h, be prepared to get your ass handed to you.

Edited by Finkeren
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+1

 

Here we go, finally, as it was in IL2.

 

BoS i really impegnative for both the sides. Fly with friends not alone.

Edited by 150GCT_Veltro
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I disagree with what you said in the sense that 200HP difference cannot compensate the wing profile difference at low altitude.... 109 with the type of wing it has and the all for speed construction of the plane.... with that horse power u cannot use at Low speed because of the torques it produces... i defenately can't agree with you....

Of course, what I say still is opinion based on readings and flight reports but since I have not been flying both these planes in reality... it remains speculation and I don't want to say that you must be wrong and me right....

 

And also, I have never been able to escape a 109 even when he was starting with a disadvantage.... the only way I get kill when playing russian is surprise direct hit. as soon as a a turn fight starts the 109 can full throttles even at 250 km/h and follow me.... I don't think this is accurate

 

And finally: players are not stupid, there is a reason none fly the Yak anymore.... the only fighter u see are 109, 190, and LA5... the others just plays rabbits...

 

 

Regards 

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You're clearly playing a different game than me. I shifted to flying the LaGG because the Yak was just too easy. Most people flying German weren't using their better performing aircraft to gain energy advantage, and as a Yak pilot you could just swoop right into the furball and shoot them down at will.

 

And yes: The mid-war 109s did in fact turn very well. We have test data from WW2 that has the Friedrich doing sustained 360s in 16sec, exactly the same as was recorded for the Yak-1.

 

Still the Yak in BoS does have the upper hand over the 109 in turn at most airspeeds below 4000m, which I think is pretty accurate.

Edited by Finkeren
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Yak1 does outturn a 109 with ease. But how good are The chances to meet a 109 at equal energy? There you go...

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+1

 

Here we go, finally, as it was in IL2.

 

BoS i really impegnative for both the sides. Fly with friends not alone.

I precised It was no gamer consideration. it is not about the gameplay, it is about the flying model not letting us playing the way it should.... in a turn below 300km/h the 109 must leave for overtorque trouble or lagg S to be able to reposition... he could argueably follow....

 

I am not talking about equilibrating... I don't want equilibrating I want accurate flying models....

 

+ again players are not stupid... it is eazy to see that the 109S are far superior than the YAK in tun fight u just call a freind and try everything as we did.... there is not a single configuration that is at the advantage of the yak....

Yak1 does outturn a 109 with ease. But how good are The chances to meet a 109 at equal energy? There you go...

when I fly 300 meters and I catch a 109 at the end of his  ressource.... explain to me why it is impossible to follow him after 1 or 2 turns ...

You're clearly playing a different game than me. I shifted to flying the LaGG because the Yak was just too easy. Most people flying German weren't using their better performing aircraft to gain energy advantage, and as a Yak pilot you could just swoop right into the furball and shoot them down at will.

 

And yes: The mid-war 109s did in fact turn very well. We have test data from WW2 that has the Friedrich doing sustained 360s in 16sec, exactly the same as was recorded for the Yak-1.

 

Still the Yak in BoS does have the upper hand over the 109 in turn at most airspeeds below 4000m, which I think is pretty accurate.

please tell me how u take a 109 out of your tail ?

and how you follow a turning 109 cause I manage to do it everywhere but in this game

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when I fly 300 meters and I catch a 109 at the end of his  ressource.... explain to me why it is impossible to follow him after 1 or 2 turns ...

 

 

kill him with one or two turns. Yak does burn it's energy (just like the spitfire) faster than the 109. You can turn tighter until you ran out of E, the 109 can get E much easier.

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please tell me how u take a 109 out of your tail ?

and how you follow a turning 109 cause I manage to do it everywhere but in this game

Shaking a 109 off your tail:

 

If you're about equal energy, you have the option to either scissor him to death, the Yak rolls slightly better than the 109, or pull some vertical turns (basically a series of tight loops) which you can do tighter and with less loss of energy than him. Trying to outturn him in the horizontal is too slow and will allow him to use his slats to pull a lead on you and take a shot (he can't sustain that lead but can hold it long enough to kill you)

 

If he's got the energy advantage, there isn't a whole lot you can do. You can try slamming the brakes and force an overshoot or if you have the altitude you can push into a vertical dive and hope he's target fixated enough to follow you down. The high speed gain will allow you to negate his advantage and once on the deck you can start your tight loops and watch him burn his E.

 

You can outturn the 109 handily above 350km/h and can sustain a tighter turn than him above 250 km/h. At lower speeds he can turn tighter thanks to his slats, but he burns a ton of E doing so and allows you to get on top of him.

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oki i will try all these with a friend right the way

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Not discussing:) Just throwing in some facts!

Erich Hartman was successful BnZer BUT

There were successful TnBers back in the day too! - for a reason!

The YAK DOES outturn the 109 below 3000m. If you cant outturn a 109 its your fault.

YAKs can pull ruddicuous small circles at amazingly high speeds. NO WAY you can follow that in a 109 with equal or higher E level - anyways, why should you?

BF 109 can accelerate faster due to numerous reasons, one of wich is much higher power to weight ratio.

I mean cmon. Do you really ask why your Beetle cant beat a Mustang on the quartermile?

 

MY 5 cent.

Edited by VSG1_Winger

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Hi people,

 

 

I Have been playing this game since sometime now and I have noticed, probably as most of you guys, that there is an important problem in it.

The superiority of German fighters is ridiculous. I have no doubt in there superior climbing  and speed capacities. Like I swear I would prefer to fly one of this 109s if my life was on the line cause they climb fast and high and fly at incredible speeds and these are the main keys to victory in the dogfight art, not mentioning the escape possibility in case of error.

 

Nevertheless, I have been searching and there is noplace, no book, no article I have ever read that mentionned 109's superiority in turn fights over the Yakovlev babies.... Quite the contrary....

 

So what I don't understand here and that I want explanation for is the following. diving on an already fighting 109 and starting a diving spiral, there should be no chance for that crazy german pilot to find himself behind me. the Yak turn rate is superior and the only option for the 109 should be to runaway.... but in this game, with the current flight model, no pb.... after losing 1,000m, slowly diving into defensive spiral the 109 find itself behind the yak..... WTF ? not mentioning low speed manoeuvers ..... how come I can never turn this hard that a 109 has to lose and go straight ???

 

let's make it clear I am not talking here about equilibrating the game or whatever gamer consideration... I am just talking about the pursuit of the correct flight model. Turn fight bellow 3000m MUST be at the advantage of the yak when starting the fight in the same or almost the same conditions as the 109. this is how it was and although I was not fighting at that time I guess that Erich Hartmann did not apply sistematically his 4 steps technic for no reason.... He must have know some how that he could lose turnfighting with other planes and this was the reason he never did....and also the reason he never got shot.... nothing to do with flying a UFO....

 

 

I really am interested in knowing if there are other players agreeing with me and especially if the developpers are thinking that indeed there might be a problem in the flight model ???

 

 

 

Regards

 

maybe you lack skills ? ;)

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maybe you lack skills ? ;)

Not really helpful, considering there have already been lengthy posts telling him, why he's wrong.

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NEVER EVER BE ONE-DIMENSIONAL in a Dogfight. A 109 Pilot who uses flaps, power and adjustable stabilizers properly can outturn you at will. Avoid manouvers requiring power (like climbs, loops etc.). In downwards, power off spirals and rolling scissors and generally every situation in which you can use your superior roll rate you can turn the fight to your advantage. The 109 may have the smaller wings and higher wingloading, but once the slats extend the 109 has the turn advantage (given that he's flying in the light configuration) and is also more stable in the turn. The slats unfotunately have the disadvantage of completly destroying your roll rate.

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Yak-1B, or Yak1M or Yak-9 or lightened version of Yak-1 -  yes all of them could turn tigher then 109.   But standart Yak-1 was more equal to 109.  Early Yak-1 was even worse then 109 F in turns according to RL data.   21 seconds for Yak-1 and 19-20 second for 109 F version.  Later version of  Yak-1 with PF motor could be more equal in turns with 109.

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NEVER EVER BE ONE-DIMENSIONAL in a Dogfight. A 109 Pilot who uses flaps, power and adjustable stabilizers properly can outturn you at will. Avoid manouvers requiring power (like climbs, loops etc.). In downwards, power off spirals and rolling scissors and generally every situation in which you can use your superior roll rate you can turn the fight to your advantage. The 109 may have the smaller wings and higher wingloading, but once the slats extend the 109 has the turn advantage (given that he's flying in the light configuration) and is also more stable in the turn. The slats unfotunately have the disadvantage of completly destroying your roll rate.

 

I wonder: Do the extended slats burn more energy as they should?

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NEVER EVER BE ONE-DIMENSIONAL in a Dogfight. A 109 Pilot who uses flaps, power and adjustable stabilizers properly can outturn you at will. Avoid manouvers requiring power (like climbs, loops etc.). In downwards, power off spirals and rolling scissors and generally every situation in which you can use your superior roll rate you can turn the fight to your advantage. The 109 may have the smaller wings and higher wingloading, but once the slats extend the 109 has the turn advantage (given that he's flying in the light configuration) and is also more stable in the turn. The slats unfotunately have the disadvantage of completly destroying your roll rate.

 

sorry, but have you ever flown this sim?

Flaps do what flaps are supposed to do for 109ers. they slow down, increase lift and cost rissiculous amounts of energy. Not a wise decision to put them out in a dogfight.

Even if. Yak has combatflaps. With them extended the yak dances circles around the 109.

There is no way a 109 can win a low level turnfight if planes are co-E and skillweise even as well.

Edited by VSG1_Winger

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Yak-1B, or Yak1M or Yak-9 or lightened version of Yak-1 -  yes all of them could turn tigher then 109.   But standart Yak-1 was more equal to 109.  Early Yak-1 was even worse then 109 F in turns according to RL data.   21 seconds for Yak-1 and 19-20 second for 109 F version.  Later version of  Yak-1 with PF motor could be more equal in turns with 109.

 

Which is exactly what we have in BoS.

 

The Series 69 Yak we have is more or less identical to the Yak-1B in terms of performance.

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I would love to see a video of one aircraft out-turning the other. Everyone can always claim one aircraft out-turns the other one, but seeing is believing. I have one of me fighting a Bf109G2, and I barely managed to out-turn him after we went down to the deck. I don't think I would have survived an encounter with an F4.

 

 

The fight starts at 1min 4s

 

The first turn is limited by G forces, I don't think I could turn harder than that, even though the plane might have been capable of it.

 

Multiple turns follow, I'm not sure if I could turn faster. It's possible I was happy with letting him bleed his speed while I was keeping mine.

 

At 2:12 we start fighting in the vertical. This did not go well, and I'm not sure I would follow Finkerel's advice about tight loopings. To be fair, our loopings were not co-centered, and tightening them (regardless of who did it) just gave more opportunities for head-to-head shootings,which favoured my opponent.

 

At 3:14 we enter a low-altitude turn-fight which eventually gives me the advantage. This seems to confirm what most people stated in this thread, but keep in mind this was at altitude 0, basically. With more room, the Bf109 would have simply dived a fled the fight until he had enough distance to resume attacking me.

 

This turn fight at very low altitude is not a good place to go. Even if you kill your enemy, you are now a sitting duck for patient vultures and will be the next one to die. Or you'll just do something stupid and crash like I did.

 

One thing that I have never seen mentioned is the effect of lag.

If you have 50ms to the server, and your enemy has 50ms to the server, that's 100ms between you and your opponent. It's easy to feel safe because you don't see the belly of your enemy on your 6, which normally means you are OK. However, your enemy sees you where you were 100ms ago, i.e. not as far up or to the side as you think you are. When flying at 400kph, that's 11m difference between actual and perceived position. I also think that 100ms total lag is probably on the low side, as it does not account for processing time by the server. The result: you get shot even though visuals told you your enemy couldn't hit you.

 

This problem with lag can explain why people get the feeling 109s can turn better than they should. Experimentation may show that they don't but, but the outcome of turn-fights may tell a different story because 109s have a better chance of pulling their nose temporarily ahead of the enemy, which is often enough to win a fight.

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Not really helpful, considering there have already been lengthy posts telling him, why he's wrong.

 

not trying to be helpful. just a cheap jab at a VVS whiner ;)

 

 

Last time I took a yak1 on syndicate I scored 2 kills on 109s, and I have have max a couple of hours on russian planes.

 

While the yak1 isnt faster or a better climber than the 109, its easy to fly, has no ill behavior, turns better below 4k, has good nose authority at slow speed, and sustains damages better..

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I would love to see a video of one aircraft out-turning the other. Everyone can always claim one aircraft out-turns the other one, but seeing is believing. I have one of me fighting a Bf109G2, and I barely managed to out-turn him after we went down to the deck. I don't think I would have survived an encounter with an F4.

 

 

The fight starts at 1min 4s

 

The first turn is limited by G forces, I don't think I could turn harder than that, even though the plane might have been capable of it.

 

Multiple turns follow, I'm not sure if I could turn faster. It's possible I was happy with letting him bleed his speed while I was keeping mine.

 

At 2:12 we start fighting in the vertical. This did not go well, and I'm not sure I would follow Finkerel's advice about tight loopings. To be fair, our loopings were not co-centered, and tightening them (regardless of who did it) just gave more opportunities for head-to-head shootings,which favoured my opponent.

 

At 3:14 we enter a low-altitude turn-fight which eventually gives me the advantage. This seems to confirm what most people stated in this thread, but keep in mind this was at altitude 0, basically. With more room, the Bf109 would have simply dived a fled the fight until he had enough distance to resume attacking me.

 

This turn fight at very low altitude is not a good place to go. Even if you kill your enemy, you are now a sitting duck for patient vultures and will be the next one to die. Or you'll just do something stupid and crash like I did.

 

One thing that I have never seen mentioned is the effect of lag.

If you have 50ms to the server, and your enemy has 50ms to the server, that's 100ms between you and your opponent. It's easy to feel safe because you don't see the belly of your enemy on your 6, which normally means you are OK. However, your enemy sees you where you were 100ms ago, i.e. not as far up or to the side as you think you are. When flying at 400kph, that's 11m difference between actual and perceived position. I also think that 100ms total lag is probably on the low side, as it does not account for processing time by the server. The result: you get shot even though visuals told you your enemy couldn't hit you.

 

This problem with lag can explain why people get the feeling 109s can turn better than they should. Experimentation may show that they don't but, but the outcome of turn-fights may tell a different story because 109s have a better chance of pulling their nose temporarily ahead of the enemy, which is often enough to win a fight.

 

i havent watched the whole video yet, but before the fight started at 1.04, I can already tell you that you werent agressive enough on the first 109.

 

You had an E advantage, and instead of making high yo yo's on him, you could have lead his turns a bit, and got closer, and had at least 2 firing opportuinities on him. Thats how I'd have done it, and I assure you that there is a 50% chances that I would have brought the 1st 109 down in these 2 passes.

 

then, at 1.04, you spotted that G2 in your six (well done) but started with a mistake.. You made a high G fast left turn..  next time, do the same, but RIGHT. the 109 turns better on the left. You turn better on the right-

 

Ok, let me go back to watch the rest of the video. I just wanted to post this before I forgot all the details.

 

 

Ok,

 

watched the second part:

 

You finally gained advantage in this one circle left turn, and then, you started going vertical... thats when the 109 took advantage again..  you exposed yourself at least 3 times because of that, and a good pilot wouldhave killed you rather than just have you venting fluid.

 

As soon as you brought the fight back horizontal, the guy was toast.

 

 

Off course he could have gone high yoyos, and you would have been defensive, but he would have never got such good firing opportunities on you, and you could have avoided his attacks by keeping him in sight.

 

The key in a 109, is to be patient.. most pilots are not. And if you insist on making them be patient enough, soon or later they will get greedy and commit a mistake

Edited by FZG_Immel
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I disagree with what you said in the sense that 200HP difference cannot compensate the wing profile difference at low altitude.... 109 with the type of wing it has and the all for speed construction of the plane.... with that horse power u cannot use at Low speed because of the torques it produces... i defenately can't agree with you....

Of course, what I say still is opinion based on readings and flight reports but since I have not been flying both these planes in reality... it remains speculation and I don't want to say that you must be wrong and me right....

 

And also, I have never been able to escape a 109 even when he was starting with a disadvantage.... the only way I get kill when playing russian is surprise direct hit. as soon as a a turn fight starts the 109 can full throttles even at 250 km/h and follow me.... I don't think this is accurate

 

And finally: players are not stupid, there is a reason none fly the Yak anymore.... the only fighter u see are 109, 190, and LA5... the others just plays rabbits...

 

 

Regards

 

As a 109 pilot I don't fear laggs or LA5s as they are easy prey. A yak on the other hand in the hands of a skilled pilot is a major threat. You also have to remember at this point in the real war German fighters totally outclassed their Russian counterparts and the game accurately pertrays that.

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I would love to see a video of one aircraft out-turning the other. Everyone can always claim one aircraft out-turns the other one, but seeing is believing. I have one of me fighting a Bf109G2, and I barely managed to out-turn him after we went down to the deck. I don't think I would have survived an encounter with an F4.

 

 

The fight starts at 1min 4s

 

The first turn is limited by G forces, I don't think I could turn harder than that, even though the plane might have been capable of it.

 

Multiple turns follow, I'm not sure if I could turn faster. It's possible I was happy with letting him bleed his speed while I was keeping mine.

 

At 2:12 we start fighting in the vertical. This did not go well, and I'm not sure I would follow Finkerel's advice about tight loopings. To be fair, our loopings were not co-centered, and tightening them (regardless of who did it) just gave more opportunities for head-to-head shootings,which favoured my opponent.

 

At 3:14 we enter a low-altitude turn-fight which eventually gives me the advantage. This seems to confirm what most people stated in this thread, but keep in mind this was at altitude 0, basically. With more room, the Bf109 would have simply dived a fled the fight until he had enough distance to resume attacking me.

 

This turn fight at very low altitude is not a good place to go. Even if you kill your enemy, you are now a sitting duck for patient vultures and will be the next one to die. Or you'll just do something stupid and crash like I did.

 

One thing that I have never seen mentioned is the effect of lag.

If you have 50ms to the server, and your enemy has 50ms to the server, that's 100ms between you and your opponent. It's easy to feel safe because you don't see the belly of your enemy on your 6, which normally means you are OK. However, your enemy sees you where you were 100ms ago, i.e. not as far up or to the side as you think you are. When flying at 400kph, that's 11m difference between actual and perceived position. I also think that 100ms total lag is probably on the low side, as it does not account for processing time by the server. The result: you get shot even though visuals told you your enemy couldn't hit you.

 

This problem with lag can explain why people get the feeling 109s can turn better than they should. Experimentation may show that they don't but, but the outcome of turn-fights may tell a different story because 109s have a better chance of pulling their nose temporarily ahead of the enemy, which is often enough to win a fight.

I just watched your video and to be honest your fight illustrates several flaws in your tactic. First is you can't expect to win a fight with a sustained turn that eventually turned into a vertical turn fight regardless of your aircraft having a better turn ability. You are perfect bait for someone to come across that circle and kill you. Second you didn't use any angles in you fight except for once which you had an opportunity for a snap shot. Third you stayed on the power the whole time and you never even set him up for a scissors and perhaps force and overshoot. By pulling consecutive loops you set your self up for a plane that has better climb. Had you actually backed off your power as you climbed you could have reduced your turn radius as he pulled into you by using "Gods G" and set your self up for at least a snap shot. Lastly if you had a wing man you might not have gotten jumped or at least cleared in the long run.

 

Go back and review your movie and count how many left hand turns you did. I'm also assuming that was AI not an MP fight.

 

I mean no offense but you're making classic beginner mistakes. It's okay as we all go through it.

Edited by 14./JG5CaptStubing
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Thanks for the advice, FZG_Immel 14./JG5CaptStubing, it's appreciated.

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From my experience the bf109 can outturn all the russian fighters if you are behind their wingline. The russian plane can outturn all the german planes when behind their wingline. It's all about who can fall behind the enemy's wingline first that will outturn the other. The actual turn rates are not significantly different enough to break the wingline advantage.

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Haha, seriously? Get any Soviet fighter higher than a German, and that German is pretty much toast. And I've had La-5's out run my 190 at 6000m.

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Haha, seriously? Get any Soviet fighter higher than a German, and that German is pretty much toast. And I've had La-5's out run my 190 at 6000m.

Get any fighter above any fighter of roughly the same era, and that fighter is pretty much toast, if the pilot with the advantage knows what he's doing.

 

The higher powered German fighters in BoS have a better chance if turning an adverse situation around than their Soviet counterparts, but it still requires some mistake from the attacking pilot.

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..... this is how it was and although I was not fighting at that time I guess that Erich Hartmann did not apply sistematically his 4 steps technic for no reason.... He must have know some how that he could lose turnfighting with other planes and this was the reason he never did....

Regards

Hartmann did more turn fights than most of his opponents ever did. But the majority of the german experts have been turn figthers. They just didn't know, that flight sim aces would consider the109 a Boom and Zoom plane 70 years after the war. Show me any original german book, where B'n'Z has even been mentioned !

 

A lot of german experts liked tree top turn fights, because they knew, that they have much more low level training than their opponents.

Edited by BlackDevil

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Many German staffel commanders considered dogfighting a waste of time and instilled that in their pilots. Hartmann really loathed the extended turn fighting.

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Every plane is superior how superior belongs to the pilot and his skill. :salute:
 

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Every plane is superior how superior belongs to the pilot and his skill. :salute:

I do back this motion.  I fly the La-5 and if I see him soon enough I can outrun and out maneuver any German fighter even if for that I loose part of my plane but stay alive.

:happy: 

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Many German staffel commanders considered dogfighting a waste of time and instilled that in their pilots. Hartmann really loathed the extended turn fighting.

But whenever he had to outturn his opponent, he did. Otherwise he couldn't have survived the war.

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But whenever he had to outturn his opponent, he did. Otherwise he couldn't have survived the war.

Or he dived away using his famous manouver we have heard so much about.

 

Or he went into a spiral climb his opponent could not match.

 

Or his wingman shot the Ivan off his tail.

 

Or the Ivan was a lousy shot, expended all his ammo and had to break off.

 

Or he simply outran the Ivan until he gave up.

 

Or he dived into a cloud.

 

Not everything about warfare is one on one dogfighting tactics.

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Or he dived away using his famous manouver we have heard so much about.

 

Or he went into a spiral climb his opponent could not match.

 

Or his wingman shot the Ivan off his tail.

 

Or the Ivan was a lousy shot, expended all his ammo and had to break off.

 

Or he simply outran the Ivan until he gave up.

 

Or he dived into a cloud.

 

Not everything about warfare is one on one dogfighting tactics.

 

Exactly! The German Schwarm-tactics propably saved more German pilots' lives (and cost more Soviet/British/American ones)  than the technological prowess of German aircraft designers.

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I used to play my IL2 DCG campaigns by getting my wingman to attack and then trying to cover him. Surprisingly difficult, especially given the AI's ability to perform bat turns and run all day at max revs, but very rewarding when you do indeed manage to nail someone following your leader.

 

I know the good MP pilots do this all the time - not really an option for me in my time zone, but now I have my planes under slightly better control I think I will start trying to fly my SP campaign missions this way in BoS. Be interesting to see what he actually does...

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From my experience the bf109 can outturn all the russian fighters if you are behind their wingline. The russian plane can outturn all the german planes when behind their wingline. It's all about who can fall behind the enemy's wingline first that will outturn the other. The actual turn rates are not significantly different enough to break the wingline advantage.

Great comment.

Every time I see an argument about turn fighting and outturning one another i find that there is a key aspect missing, the anlges at wich each fighter is turning at the start of the fight. 

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I am sure every real life pilots did turn fights back then, but there's a lot of different kinds of turn fights. It's not risky to do a couple agressive attacks in a row when you have high relative energy because no matter how the other guy maneuvers, you can get another gun pass while you have the energy. The kind of turn fight to avoid is when you do multiple flat-ish circles in a row with equal or worse energy. If you have the fast plane you should be able to extend away by causing a headon merge, meaning you don't have to fight those risky turnfights.

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I would love to see a video of one aircraft out-turning the other. Everyone can always claim one aircraft out-turns the other one, but seeing is believing. I have one of me fighting a Bf109G2, and I barely managed to out-turn him after we went down to the deck. I don't think I would have survived an encounter with an F4.

 

 

The fight starts at 1min 4s

 

The first turn is limited by G forces, I don't think I could turn harder than that, even though the plane might have been capable of it.

 

Multiple turns follow, I'm not sure if I could turn faster. It's possible I was happy with letting him bleed his speed while I was keeping mine.

 

At 2:12 we start fighting in the vertical. This did not go well, and I'm not sure I would follow Finkerel's advice about tight loopings. To be fair, our loopings were not co-centered, and tightening them (regardless of who did it) just gave more opportunities for head-to-head shootings,which favoured my opponent.

 

At 3:14 we enter a low-altitude turn-fight which eventually gives me the advantage. This seems to confirm what most people stated in this thread, but keep in mind this was at altitude 0, basically. With more room, the Bf109 would have simply dived a fled the fight until he had enough distance to resume attacking me.

 

This turn fight at very low altitude is not a good place to go. Even if you kill your enemy, you are now a sitting duck for patient vultures and will be the next one to die. Or you'll just do something stupid and crash like I did.

 

One thing that I have never seen mentioned is the effect of lag.

If you have 50ms to the server, and your enemy has 50ms to the server, that's 100ms between you and your opponent. It's easy to feel safe because you don't see the belly of your enemy on your 6, which normally means you are OK. However, your enemy sees you where you were 100ms ago, i.e. not as far up or to the side as you think you are. When flying at 400kph, that's 11m difference between actual and perceived position. I also think that 100ms total lag is probably on the low side, as it does not account for processing time by the server. The result: you get shot even though visuals told you your enemy couldn't hit you.

 

This problem with lag can explain why people get the feeling 109s can turn better than they should. Experimentation may show that they don't but, but the outcome of turn-fights may tell a different story because 109s have a better chance of pulling their nose temporarily ahead of the enemy, which is often enough to win a fight.

thanks for this post that I think answered to my questions and also to the new one I found out... why i can KILL 3 AI ACE in quick mission with one round of ammo and I bearly kill 1 with on the multi.... I have to say I don't really understand because... in the other games it seems I have the same lag. though I don't feel like I am a blind guy trying to shoot an elephant in a corridor which is basically the sensation the multi on BOS gives me...

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