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why the P 40 wrecked plane and not the P 39 ?

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http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-40/

Subsequently the regiment was transferred to a more dangerous sector of the front-near Stalingrad. The 126th IAP, formed on TOE 015/174

 

Hermann Graf
p8fxzRz.png

 

All the "new aircraft" polls I've seen just get blown out of proportion, adding the P-39 at this moment in time, is just complete ludacris.

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I agree that MC 202 is not that bad and if canon and BMW motor would have been provided to the Romanian as it was schedule IAR 80 would probably have been as good as the FW was....

In fact, Romanian ACE got kills on this machine to the end of the war....

 

also, my idea was just to point the fact that russians did not like the P 40. they did not bought any more than the one that were first delivered and there must be a reason to that ??? also, most of the russian pilots flew on the P 39 while so few flew the P 40.

finally, I am not sure that the Hurri and the warhawk were more engaged in Stalingrad than the P 39.

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I agree, this make the p 40 unsuitable for this game:

"As part of the 6th Air Corps, the 126th IAP flew 666 combat sorties to cover the forces of Kalinin and West Fronts and 318 combat sorties for the defense of Moscow in the period from 25 October 1941 to 25 April 1942. During this effort the regiment downed 29 enemy aircraft at a cost of four of their own aircraft and two pilots. The most intensive period was the first month-685 sorties and 17 kills. But later the regiment was plagued by a continuous series of accidents. The Tomahawk IIB was completely unsuitable for use in the Russian winter. The oil, hydraulic fluid, and antifreeze all froze in temperatures that reached -38° C."

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I agree, this make the p 40 unsuitable for this game:

"As part of the 6th Air Corps, the 126th IAP flew 666 combat sorties to cover the forces of Kalinin and West Fronts and 318 combat sorties for the defense of Moscow in the period from 25 October 1941 to 25 April 1942. During this effort the regiment downed 29 enemy aircraft at a cost of four of their own aircraft and two pilots. The most intensive period was the first month-685 sorties and 17 kills. But later the regiment was plagued by a continuous series of accidents. The Tomahawk IIB was completely unsuitable for use in the Russian winter. The oil, hydraulic fluid, and antifreeze all froze in temperatures that reached -38° C."

But how does that justify adding the P-39, which flew an astounding 0 sorties over Stalingrad?

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also I started this topic talking about P 39 but I think there are other planes that are even more missing to this game:

 

JU 88

DO 217

 

 

SU 2

PO 2

MIG 3

I 16

 

 

and there are more important planes missing..... snif snif

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The Do-217 didn't fly over Stalingrad, so that should be out of the picture for now, neither the Ju-88 as I think they were further South.  I'm pretty sure the Migs didn't either as they were mostly replaced.
http://www.stalingrad.net/german-hq/the-stalingrad-airlift/airstat.html

But you're also forgetting the Li-2.

And the Ju-52 out of all the planes.

Besides the fact that this sort of thread just leads to a flame war, I will stand with the fact that they should add the planes that actually participated in the battle before anything else.

Edited by Silky
  • Upvote 1

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But how does that justify adding the P-39, which flew an astounding 0 sorties over Stalingrad?

We also have the FW 190A3 which was not in Stalingrad, so, yeah.

Edited by GrapeJam

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Let's be honest, I'm buying everything anyway - regardless of the release order.

With you on that one, Murf.  :biggrin:

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I agree that MC 202 is not that bad and if canon and BMW motor would have been provided to the Romanian as it was schedule IAR 80 would probably have been as good as the FW was....

In fact, Romanian ACE got kills on this machine to the end of the war....

 

also, my idea was just to point the fact that russians did not like the P 40. they did not bought any more than the one that were first delivered and there must be a reason to that ??? also, most of the russian pilots flew on the P 39 while so few flew the P 40.

finally, I am not sure that the Hurri and the warhawk were more engaged in Stalingrad than the P 39.

 

777 Studios did a very good job at selecting only aircraft and series types that appeared in combat in the Stalingrad sector that they chose to represent. We don't have the complete list of aircraft but we certainly have a solid selection. The FW190 is an obvious outlier to that statement.

 

The P-39 did not fly in the Stalingrad sector. At all. It should wait for a new addition that has historical scenarios where it was a key part of the battle (i.e. the Kuban front a few months later and further to the south). The P-40 DID fly in the Stalingrad sector and it was in combat. Therefore it is suitable for inclusion. I'm not sure if the Hurricane units entered combat at Stalingrad or not.

 

The Soviet Union received multiple orders for the P-40.

 

 

 

The Soviet units received 247 P-40B/Cs (equivalent to the Tomahawk IIA/B in RAF service) and 2,178 P-40E, -K, -L, and -N models between 1941 and 1944

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtiss_P-40_Warhawk#Soviet_Union

 

So under the lend lease agreement they did end up with more than just one shipment. Quite a few and even when the P-40s were pulled back from the frontline they were still issued in number to the PVO squadrons providing vital defense. Russia, like Britain, was in dire need of any and all combat aircraft and while the P-40 was only just barely competitive... it was available and that's the key part to the history of the P-40 - not always the best plane but the one that they had on hand.

 

There's a good website that gives a solid summary of Soviet operations and history with the P-40. http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-40/

 

If we want to change the subject... then other types like the Su-2, I-16, Yak-7, IAR80/81, MC.200/202, Bf110, Bf109E, and so forth would be (if my research is correct) suitable for possible inclusion especially if we gained a summer or autumn version of the Stalingrad map. Not to mention the Ju-52 and Li-2 as vital transport types.

 

This shouldn't be about what the pilots liked or didn't like or which aircraft were successful and which were not. It should be about accurate historical representation. Based on historical documentation. Was the aircraft engaged in the battle? Then lets put it on the list. If not, then not. If we want a P-39 really badly then lets tell 777 Studios we want a future addition to include somewhere where the P-39 fought. I'd be in favour!

Edited by ShamrockOneFive
  • Upvote 2

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" The oil, hydraulic fluid, and antifreeze all froze in temperatures that reached -38° C." " 

 

No problems, fluid freeze is not modeled. ;)

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Please add everything available in 1946 4.12.
Planes, maps, Ships, static and active objects... the whole shebang.
And Start with the beginning of the hot phase of WWII... Poland.

IMO.

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The British did not want the P-39 that is why the Soviets got them.

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The real question isn't about what, but rather, when...

 

i got time.

gonna take a decade at least, just like with the old game.

 

you don't have time or want to have certain planes or theatres addded "in" first?

u gonna have a bad time.

:D

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And Start with the beginning of the hot phase of WWII... Poland.

While it certainly would be interestign it has also it's great issues in terms of gameplay. The real battle of poland lasted only weeks, the Luftwaffe totally dominated the unprepared and #underfitted polish airforce.

 

Also their aircraft where totally outdated for that time. With people already complaining about the Lagg-3 and other VVS fighters a "Battle of Poland" might be a little over the top :biggrin:

 

The first roughtly even air combat happened at BoB if we exclude Spain. Later proved to strongly turn in favour of the nationalists with the arrival of the 109 though.

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irrelevant.
People flew the PZL fighters in the old game. they even MADE new PZL fighters. and early fiat fighters. and a Ki-10-like thing.
You give someone a well-made tool, and they will use it.
Only the haters and the noobs and the unappreciating people will complain. they can stick to their 109G2 for all I care.
If the subject not large enough? include the Northern war between finland and Russia. or the invasion.
*waves a hundred dollars*

 

and i also disagree...
France was a bit better equipped, with the rare D-520s set up against emils, 406's and Blochs...

The French were not trained and had the bad strategy for the war to come.
but Pilots and Planes were "interesting"...
why not a "invasion of the low countries" package?

Tell me this is complete BS.

anyway.
i retain the position of:
everything must be in this simulator, sooner or later.
everything.

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Let's be honest, I'm buying everything anyway - regardless of the release order.

Ha - yep.

Me too.

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P-40 would be really nice, and something completly new for BoS: wing mounted HMG. with the damage model of BoS 6 .50 would be insane fun  :o:

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France was a bit better equipped, with the rare D-520s set up against emils, 406's and Blochs...

The French were not trained and had the bad strategy for the war to come.

That doesn't deny that infact BoB was the first "even" air combat over europe in WW2. The french didn't stad a chance without british fighter squadroms and even lost regardless to the battle trained Luftwaffe. The RAF on the other hand could counter with more expirienced pilots in better machines.

 

Aside it's up to the devs what scenario will come. They didn't ask us for STalingrad and most liekly wont ask us for the next theatre (most likely Kuban), so I'd hold my wishes as for now until they set up their priorities and have the capacities to fullfill comunity wishes (and hopefully this day will come).

 

Back to P-40, yes it's nice, it's historical and it's murican. Nothing more to add.

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i am confused about the senence "they didn't ask us"
they made some market research... they decided on a subject... your decision is to buy or not to buy.
the market research was the "asking us" even if we were not asked individually.

:) and it was not like the community was not voicing its opinions and wishes either, the forums were surely an abundant source of ideas.

 

And whatever comes next - the flying part of BoS convinces me they are smart and competent enough to...

Put a hellcat on a Jeep carrier, and launch that off a Catapult, or modeling the Battle of Madagascar, wildcats versus whatever the axis had down there...

BoS shows good competence in the core needs of a proper flight sim, the "secondaries" still need proper work.

 

and now we have threads arguing the 39 over the 40...
and i bet there are people in this thread who have not even unlocked all the goodies.


always more, never happy.
 

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the Battle of Madagascar, wildcats versus whatever the axis had down there...

As far as I know, There were only obsolette French piloted MS406 there. Madagascar was controlled by Vichy.

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ah that would suck, would it not...

red and yellow stripes on the planes that were supposed to defend france.
i would have a hard time pointing my wildcat on them and then pull the trigger.
I really like that ugly duck.

 

I wonder how the french community would think of such an add-on
"here you go, you can fly the MS406, but you are a Vichy french pilot if you do"

and even later publish a battle of France addon
"it was only a joke, here, have a Benelux Map and some Dorniers, now you can shoot at those too"

 

:D

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It sucked... all MS406 were downed in a few days.

But that wasn't the first time. On the Lebanon/Syrian campaign, there was a fight between the fleet air arm and Vichy. On ground some fights involved French troops against french troops. There was even the only time in history who saw a battle between two foreign legion units (one fighting for Vichy, the other for the free french).

 

I would have no problem with an addon allowing to fight over Lebanon and Syria.... or even above Madagascar (with an exceptionnal landscape bellow).

But all French are awaiting an battle of France sim/addon.... this is our secret fantasm... that will probably never be achieved.

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you are not alone... with BoB covered, a BoF scenario would be welcome for a few reasons :)

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Where is poll OP talks about

Edited by sop

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"... battle of France sim/addon..."

 

People will complain about little content, the French Air Force don't last "two weeks" in that battle.  :) 

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in the polls section?

I must be blind or something could you or someone else please link it .

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I must say i am shocked about how you dare say little content!
Holey ship, get a picture!

 

here a few base models, not including variants.

 

hawk75
ms406
D.520
Potez 630

farman bomber

hurricane
blenheim

battle

caudron714...if you will even if it's a stretch

lysander

emil
110
early stuka

do17

ju88

Henschel 126

fiesler storch

 

and in the south, the little known skirmishes between french and  italians
Sparviero
Fiat CR32 - or was it the G50 who was involved? i always forget.

 

it took me 15 seconds to  name a plane list bigger than what BoS has.

and i won't cover other things like map; Cities; landscapes; tanks; AAA...
lack of content?
There was TONS of stuff going on in the west.
I suggest you start reading!

 

==============================

@SOP:
here, there is a place full of Polls ;)

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/21-polls/

Edited by Hawker_Typhoon

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In the South, The Italian plane the most involved was the CR42.

 

Not only the planeset would be quite large for the BoF (in order to be representative, just for the french bombers, there was 12 different types), but it would be quite interesting and balanced.

For the French side, Both the H75 and the D520 would be a match for the 109E4 and early 110, the Mb152 would have a little more difficulties but be usable, and the MS406 be the underdog.

The Br691 would be interesting for ground attack; for the bombers, either the imported ones like the Douglas DB-7 or the Glenn Martin 167F (both used later by the RaF on the North African theater), or the French Leo 451 or Amiot 143 would be quite interesting to fly.

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noooo!
no. i do not want to ever read the breguet 691 again- i find that ... THING to be ugly! i mean really ugly ugly.
yikes!

Battle of France would rock. and depending on how the maps are, can come usefull for when the train of events go backwards... back to germany :D Normandy, bulge, and maybe even luxembourg. (that would be a first time "home sweet home" feeling )

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The Battle of France would be a fascinating scenario, and it would not be a pushover for the Luftwaffe like many in the sim community think.

 

Luftwaffe losses were far greater, (on the order of 30% more) than the Germans estimated they would be.

 

In short the L'Armee de l'Air gave the Luftwaffe a bloody nose that it did not quickly recover from, and contributed to the Luftwaffe's defeat in the Battle of Britain.

 

And, it would be a chance to fly the under rated Curtiss Hawk 75.

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We've drifted pretty far afield of the OP. There are plenty of wish list scenario threads.

I think actual historical details ended up torpedoing the original intent of the thread so it turned into stuff we'd like to have :)

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OP asked about why the result of a poll was ...what it was.

as the answer lies in the Minds of the people that took part in the poll, it was impossible to find it but to ask "these specific" people.
But since this is a public thing, not a specific thing, presto, here we go!

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Not a great french plane fan but the scenario could be interesting. There are a few distincitve planes I'd like to fly on the Western side of the Rhein though as the Morane Sauliner and this neat dive bomber (perfect STuka B2 counterpart):

ln411-8.jpg

Don't knwo anything about the LN.401 though it looks pretty nice to me.

 

Sure we drifted off, the polls are made and aren't subject to change again I guess. The cobra simply doesn't fit unlike the P-40 and the Hurricane - well, they are going to meat the german fighter generation build to totally dominate them. :P

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Sure we drifted off, the polls are made and aren't subject to change again I guess. The cobra simply doesn't fit unlike the P-40 and the Hurricane - well, they are going to meat the german fighter generation build to totally dominate them. :P

 

We also have the FW 190A3 which was not in Stalingrad, so, yeah.

Anyway, I'm not really complaining about the P40 as I'm looking forward to some proper BnZ action as a VVS pilot, and early P39D was also crap anyway.

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Love the p39 looks, but I've died more deaths from poor airmanship flying the p39 than enemy fire in IL2 FB, both sp and mp...

 

Red

Airacobra was among most unforgiving fighter back then.

 

But in all honesty one of the few that could match German fighters... Cobra could dive with Focke Wulf and turn with Messerschmitt.

 

Not sure how BoS Cobra will perform (if it ever gets here).

 

I feel, from my somewhat limited gameplay time, that LA-5 and especially LaGG-3 are a far cry from being a good oppos to Me-109.

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