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Yak_Panther
7 hours ago, Han said:

 

 

In your CEP 50% equation; CEP = Area/3/2

 

 Area / 3 is a way to represent 1 standard deviation of a normal distribution.  If the bullet impacts are distributed Normally, Gaussian, then 34% of the rounds will impact within 1 standard deviation of aim point.  So dividing the area by 3 gives you about 1 standard deviation. 

 

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In the next part of this equation, you are dividing ( Area / 3) by 2.  As a way to compute a radius.

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Then compute the dispersion angle through trigonometry.

  8BPQYegY2z9zmVM5be3RjhP2e627z2ptaf_d7U7zIpMKSVADaiSw9Dg4R-nRSGDFViu-PDDg2TWwjADdqu677yxiO7HG0PAM20bzYosJ8dbS2jcUb1eCsHrsGkvk60o3j4pOIQZ9=s0


 

Your method is giving you half of the dispersion angle of a circle 30% of the total area. This method is functionally calculating a dispersion angle for a circle 15 % the size of the 100 % Dispersion.  

mu6iVL9TKmIUKGm83_n5BJRp0VF0hUU3ndRBPC2b5txOBsDTAf20S-6P2AdSdw8FjUCX6x3jzPihKHB-FHYw1wCDwlT1j5IS9i4b9cKuerkonyK8O87Y_YbQPW67XjE_N4VxszBa=s0

 

I think what your looking to model is angle of the 30% circle

7DmWalgorSQ35v4oz67ob3rggjbKO_BLypXqBSbbX2yyvwvZ_StGhfZEbjnSRCXbmbrD3H7xib9OrbSucxeleOA9PGibv-aBYM6w6Uvx7TCIudB3OISKzdTgGDy9IxxSlbNuzBT0=s0

 

If that’s the case Just take 30/33 % of 8 Mils and convert it to degrees. 

Since the 100 % rating is 8 mils. 

Fti0awI76X8TY91gVbCuXzM-VRoEBdawq9ngoqDgFId6dNG14p4wwDKAkaJCcLhK2xAQpk5Ldln-K2PAU8gvsIRba2kw6o68ejd6J3DPE69Jjb049tJS3DUR4yL-BnOpoesi_DEP=s0

 

This would be 0.152406 degrees

 

The reason my mod changes the dispersion to 6 times the base is because it’s attempting to replicate the 100 % Dispersion circle through the heat scaling. Which is why it’s 6 times higher than the base game. The base game gives a dispersion circle with an area 15% of what the Air Force indicates. Since 6.66e * 15 = 100. 

 

Does the system increase or decrease the base dispersion based on a random dice role with a Gaussian distribution?

Edited by Yak_Panther
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On 9/6/2021 at 12:06 AM, Han said:

I'm understand that digging the configs is a great deed and fun, but let's discuss not deep internal things of how game code is working but the troubles you see in game.

 

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Hi @Han

 

There's probably a lot we might not know about in the background (I know the ballistics system is incredible complex) so I think we can just focus on the end result. 

 

We've discovered that the dispersion currently implemented is a little on the low side and we're fortunate enough to have a very good source showing us the best case patterns we should expect for 1 gun. 

 

17 hours ago, Han said:

Anyway, CEP circle - is a circle where 50% of hits are located. In normal dispersion it's ecual to 33% of radius of full dispersion circle.

 

So if full dispersion is 8 feet in diameter (at 2000ft), than CEP radius is 8/3/2=1.33333 feets at 2000 ft range

atan(1.33333/2000)=0.038197° - you see it in config (a bit differ while exact full dispersion source was a bit differ).

 

So taking into account what you stated above, if the team updated the config file to have a full dispersion diameter of 16 feet (8 mils) at 2000 ft instead of 8 feet (4 mils) and kept the CEP calculations the same, then we would be left with a pattern very similar to the source material we see above? 

 

I think that's a pretty good solution with a comparatively small amount of effort from the team and you guys can move onto the rest of your work! :)


(Forgive me if that's what you have suggested and I have missed that)

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Hello, 

.50, .30, .303, 37mm M4 and 20mm Hispanos dispersion will be corrected in next update according to the updated set of sources. 

 

Trouble was that before (in 2015) we have had no notes that 8ft at 2000ft is not 100% hit circle but 75% hit circle. Also we have had no any dispersion info for other guns from this list. Now we have - with your assist - thank you for that. 

 

Also, having some new dispersion info for M4 37mm which is pretty close to soviet 37mm guns dispersion historical data - we can do a better suggestion for 40mm Vickers class S dispersion. 

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1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

@Han ww1 machine guns have correct dispersion ?

 

have you any new data on LMG or Vickers dispersion for any plane with syncronized MGs?

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1PL-Husar-1Esk
1 hour ago, Han said:

 

have you any new data on LMG or Vickers dispersion for any plane with syncronized MGs?

No,  but looking  how accurate those are in the FC, I had that doubt.  

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5 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

No,  but looking  how accurate those are in the FC, I had that doubt.  

 

They're on level of worst (in terms of size of dispersion field) of MGs from ww2.

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=KG76=flyus747

 1) Bomb sight twitching bug.
Whatever is causing this issue makes lining up for target extremely disorientating. I do not know what triggers this bug. 

 

 

2) He 111 H-6 and H-16 top gunner audio bug.

In both aircraft, the top gunner audio is always as if the canopy was open (even though on the H-16 this is not possible). The result is it is noticeably louder in this position than compared to the others. In the video you will see my cycle thru all H-6 gunners and notice the audio difference. May need to turn up volume.

 

 

3) Missing crosshair reticule for H16 gunner

When hopping in a friendly H-16 gunner, the bottom gunner reticule does not show up, leaving the player with no reference from which to aim from. This, however, is not true when operating the bottom gunner of your own H-16. The issue seems to only exist when hopping in someone else's H-16 bottom gunner.

5unXUBu.thumb.png.f1d34ad479e6f8e79416b2732fc14b19.png

 

 

4) He 111 H-6 and H-16 Fuel Tank inaccuracies

The dimensions of the wing fuel tanks on both the H-6 and the H-16 aircraft are incorrectly modelled. I have provided photographs for reference. They are from the H-6 manual. I do not have reference material for the H-16, but I assume it is no different.

8xXxDUh.thumb.png.69b5ee08749c1739be19cf2370961322.png
2.JPG.0fff74f8484de3aaa52dc37030120816.JPG1.thumb.JPG.880b976ecbbdcb62e96f3319ba75fe72.JPG

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Hello =KG76=flyus747

 

1 - I"ve spent some time on attempts to reproduce this bug trying to copy the situation on your video and I've no luck. How to achieve it step-by-step from game starting?

 

2 - We will check this and I suppose that this should be adjusted a bit. 

 

3 - To be fixed in the next update, thank you.

 

4 - Ve have listed this issue and it will be fixed one day. Thank you.

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On 9/6/2021 at 12:06 AM, Han said:

Hello,

I'm understand that digging the configs is a great deed and fun, but let's discuss not deep internal things of how game code is working but the troubles you see in game.

 

To finally remove your doubts that we (the team) do not know how our own config files are working - here is the test.

 

1st large stroke of gunsight is 1.1076° deviated from zero.
1.1076°/3=0.3692° is configured for burst dispersion (sigma - standart deviation - parameter in Normal distribution).

 

Gun is loaded by 800 rounds with insane rate of fire for test, all shells with tracers. Gun overheating zeroed.

 

As you can see - all projectiles are inside the limits of 1st large strokes (to the left and to the right) of gunsight.

 

So result in simulation is totally corresponds to configuration parameter (sigma) of gun dispersion.

 

And this how dispersion pattern is looks like (800 shots in one moment):

image.png

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On 9/8/2021 at 11:11 PM, Han said:

Hello =KG76=flyus747

 

1 - I"ve spent some time on attempts to reproduce this bug trying to copy the situation on your video and I've no luck. How to achieve it step-by-step from game starting?

 

 

Hi @Han!

Many thanks for responding to @=KG76=flyus747 and his thread.

 

I have encountered this problem of the bomb sight 'skipping' for several years now, and it has never been resolved. Unfortunately I cannot provide any logical step to reproducing the error; it is completely spontaneous, I know this as I routinely flew JU-88 raids with several other players, and it would appear to be a random chance that some would have the bug, and others wouldn't.

 

The only possible conclusion we came to was that if a player flew a second sortie on the same server without disconnecting and reconnecting, their chance of encountering the bug seemed to increase. I have reported on this issue for a long time now; please see here and here for some more comments. The only way to fix the error, once encountered, was to disconnect from the server and reconnect.

 

Thanks, and all the best.

Edited by Leifr
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hello, I'm not sure it's really a bug, but something tickles me in the tank: if I'm not mistaken (I'm speaking for the German side, maybe it's the same for the allies ...), but the loader is in charge of reloading the shells and the coaxial machine gun? in the game, this can fire the machine gun AND reload the shells at the same time ?!

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=KG76=flyus747
On 9/8/2021 at 3:11 PM, Han said:

Hello =KG76=flyus747

 

1 - I"ve spent some time on attempts to reproduce this bug trying to copy the situation on your video and I've no luck. How to achieve it step-by-step from game starting?

 

2 - We will check this and I suppose that this should be adjusted a bit. 

 

3 - To be fixed in the next update, thank you.

 

4 - Ve have listed this issue and it will be fixed one day. Thank you.

Hi Han, thanks for getting back to me, I was afraid these issues would never see the light of day because not many people fly bombers.

 

1. I do not know how to replicate this bug. I am afraid to open the bomb sight when I am on the ground because I am afraid that is what triggers the bug, but then sometimes I open it for the first time at 5km and it shows up then so, I wish I could give you a better answer but the fact of the matters is, I do not know how to replicate the bug. I have a few theories but they all fall apart at some point. The simplest explanation is that every time you open the bomb sight, there is a 10% chance you get the bug. It is something about this bomb sight interface. Every time anyone uses the bomb sight, they just get a roll of the dice. Either they get a buggy bomb sight or a normal bomb sight, there is no way to anticipate. There is no way to workaround it except by restarting the entire game.

 

On the topic of the bomb sight, I wish to also bring to your attention two additional bugs that I have finally been able to get recordings of as I do not know how it is created.

 

"Scrolling Speed" Bug  (Note the difference in scrolling speeds before/after 00:19)

 

"Stuck View" Bug (Note the "stuck" camera at 00:07)

 

This is what makes the bug so scary, it cannot be anticipated or avoided. It happens when it wants to and just screws the bomb aimer over. Today I flew with 4x111 and the lead had to back down because he found out he had the bug while on the bomb run. Luckily, mine still worked so I aimed for all of us. The issue must lie within the interface itself. This interface computer is easy to break or use outside its intended limits.

 

2. The 111 H-6 top gunner can open or close his canopy. When it is open, it is loud. When it is closed, it is quiet. On the 111 H-16 top gunner, you cannot open the canopy, however, it is always loud. 

 

3. Glad to hear, many thanks.

 

4. Very much looking forward to it.

Edited by =KG76=flyus747
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Brief description: Hurricane S gun bug
 

Detailed description, conditions: Hurricane II 40mm S gun runs out of ammo after about 5 minutes of flight regardless if any rounds are fired or not. Initially I thought this was an issue affecting multiplayer but I've subsequently tried it in a quick mission and it has occurs there too.  Does Il2 model jamming due to temperatures or hard manouevring?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by thrila
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-DED-Rapidus
On 9/11/2021 at 3:58 PM, =KG76=flyus747 said:

The 111 H-6 top gunner can open or close his canopy. When it is open, it is loud. When it is closed, it is quiet. On the 111 H-16 top gunner, you cannot open the canopy, however, it is always loud. 

We are aware of the problem, it is in the tasks for correction, we apologize for the delay in fixing it.

 

On 9/11/2021 at 5:30 PM, thrila said:

Brief description: Hurricane S gun bug

Look at the control settings, namely the item responsible for reloading weapons. Can there be a frequent pressing of the recharge?

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Regingrave
11.09.2021 в 10:28, moustache сказал:

in the game, this can fire the machine gun AND reload the shells at the same time ?!

Coaxial machine gun is fired by the gunner.

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59 minutes ago, Regingrave said:

Coaxial machine gun is fired by the gunner.

ok, as much for me, this book (Michael Green et Gladys Green, Panther : Germany’s quest for combat dominance, Oxford, Osprey Publishing, 2012) said the opposite, speaking specifically of the panther, but I do not know if it is a reliable source ...

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On 9/7/2021 at 5:01 AM, Han said:

have you any new data on LMG or Vickers dispersion for any plane with syncronized MGs?

 

Probably old data, but Bennett relied mainly on these two sources:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3305085 (Notes on the work of Orfordness armament experimental station in connection with sights and tactics in aerial gunnery - AIR 1/2427/305/29/942)

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6322627 (Trials of Lewis Guns fitted with wind vane and ring sights - AIR 2/51/AB275/2355).

 

It is a bit tricky because there were so many sources of dispersion (the gun itself, the rigidity of the mount, airframe/engine vibration, turbulence - and both wind and gee effects on the flexible mounts). I'm not sure these sources discriminate between all of these different causes. Still, I hope those sources help (if you don't already have them).

 

Btw. Bennett also notes the impact of airspeed and fatigue on the ability to reload the over wing Lewis gun (and presumably, any type of working of the guns means only one hand on the stick - doubling the effective forces to operated the controls) - but that was based on other sources (first-hand accounts). Still, with the new pilot fatigue and wind-speed systems it might be worth considering someday.

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On 9/12/2021 at 11:25 PM, -DED-Rapidus said:

Look at the control settings, namely the item responsible for reloading weapons. Can there be a frequent pressing of the recharge?

 

I checked and you are correct. Recharge was mapped to the same button as zoom on my joystick.

 

I was not aware recharge was mapped to my stick by default. I've now unmapped it.

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On 9/12/2021 at 3:25 PM, -DED-Rapidus said:

We are aware of the problem, it is in the tasks for correction, we apologize for the delay in fixing it.

 

Look at the control settings, namely the item responsible for reloading weapons. Can there be a frequent pressing of the recharge?

Understood, glad to hear.

 

Is there any hope for fixing the mysterious bugs on the bomb sight?

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27 minutes ago, =KG76=flyus747 said:

Is there any hope for fixing the mysterious bugs on the bomb sight?

Unfortunately, there is no clear pattern, I periodically return to attempts to reproduce this problem.

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7 hours ago, -DED-Rapidus said:

Unfortunately, there is no clear pattern, I periodically return to attempts to reproduce this problem.

It is one of those bugs that only occurs once every 20 or so times. I suspect that everytime you start the bomb sight, there is a ~5% chance of occurrence. 

The only way to experience this for yourself is spend time bombing. Set up the bomb sight before you takeoff (I suspect that increases likelihood of occurrence) and scroll up and down a lot. Try to break it. Make several inputs on the interface in a short amount of time. Maybe then will it reveal itself.

Maybe it won't happen tomorrow, or next few days, but maybe it will happen out of nowhere one day and when it happens, you are done for. No way to fix it inflight, you can only quit game.

Edited by =KG76=flyus747
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