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Perhaps people posting here would care to pre-order BoS, just a thought. I`ve paid into both.

 

Oh, I will purchase BoS; not to show off a Founder's tag on this forum, but to enjoy playing it during the shortening days with a glass of whisky. The pre-order program is running till October 1, am I correct?

I've been away from playing combat flight sims for a while; played the original IL-2, then moved on to FSX. Rediscovered combat flight sims when I sold my Thrustmaster Cougar (still had the Warthog), in the form of DCS: A-10C. Purchased P-51D for $10 and was sold. It needs a decent WWII sandbox to play in, and what better way to start than with Normandy (considering P-51D and Fw.190D are late war variants)?

My late father served in WWII; initially in the Luftwaffe, then in the Leibstandarte (as part of the Hermann Göring-spende). Hence my interest in the Russian front and IL-2: BoS. He was wounded during Operation Zitadelle, so I hope for a future IL-2 scenario of this cauldron battle.

Edited by Jochen
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I come from China. I bought BOS only, didn't buy DCS yet. It doesn't mean I don't like DCS. Certainly I will buy it 1 year later when it's ready, beacause I like Fighters and Bombers of WW2. If producers of BOS wants it exceed DCS, they should be more studious and never be aloof from players. The game is need to absorb merits form others, also discard it's demerits step by step. Or they can make something that other games don't have, for example- Chinese version. There are huge quantity people who speak Chinese. As per the ratio, quantity of Chinese players are huge too. DOF forum on internet is one of Chinese players' rallying point. I believe it will bring more profit if ther is a Chinese version of BOS, and it should be a big surprise. Makers of DCS don't notice it yet.

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Hey Hansen

Nice to hear such a fresh perspective. Honestly, I think no-one ever considers the Chinese market when it comes to flight sims. Are they popular (hard question, I know)? Here in Japan there are almost no PC games at all in shops, so even fewer flight sim games.

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...There are huge quantity people who speak Chinese. As per the ratio, quantity of Chinese players are huge too. DOF forum on internet is one of Chinese players' rallying point. I believe it will bring more profit if ther is a Chinese version of BOS, and it should be a big surprise. Makers of DCS don't notice it yet.

 

 

yes they should try be more frendly to this market, i remember one guy posted question about this on Chinese language on this forum, Sokol 1 gave answered to him but i see day after both posts were deleted, maybe because post was on chinese character (guy even used numbers for hes name probably could not use chines character)

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Probably depends on where you are. For me, servers in China would be ideal as they're so nearby and timezone friendly, whereas the major US and Euro servers were problematic for playing online. For straight downloading though, it has never been an issue.

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Probably depends on where you are. For me, servers in China would be ideal as they're so nearby and timezone friendly, whereas the major US and Euro servers were problematic for playing online. For straight downloading though, it has never been an issue.

 

China is a huge market for sure.Don't they have terrible internet though? I seem to remember huge pings online with Chinese players, I assume downloading anything would be a pain.

 

Definitely need the Chinese to inflate the numbers to justify a server in this part of the world. Getting like 240++ms pings to EUR/RUS servers in War Thunder and 350ms to US from Malaysia, but for other games to US West Coast is about 280++ms.

 

Lots of people waiting to get to play good flight sim games. Kinda crazy when seeing my friends spent up to USD$5000 to back the space sim Star Citizen, the most successful ever crowd funded project..yea totally diff genre but it shows that people are willingly to spend hell amount of money on an unreleased PC game.

 

Currently I'm playing War Thunder's Full Real Battles mode but it's still far less complicated than DCS, has inferior FM, DM and being a flight sim addict, I'd purchased all the DCS modules on sale recently, and contemplating to back their upcoming project.

 

 

China is a huge market for sure.Don't they have terrible internet though? I seem to remember huge pings online with Chinese players, I assume downloading anything would be a pain.

 

The backbone from Asia to US via the Pacific Ocean is congested, to Europe is a little bit better but still far from ideal.

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Here in Japan there are almost no PC games at all in shops, so even fewer flight sim games.

 

Hi FlatSpinMan, you're a lucky man living in Japan. I've worked and lived there for almost 3 years (Tokyo).

Missing it now but hated the long working hours at the time and the Japanese police checking my Alien registration card for nothing.

You're right about the Japanese games market; mostly Final Fantasy and Sengoku-jidai period games.

Catering to the Chinese market, a Flying Tigers game would be the way to go.

Edited by Jochen
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I can`t help but think this is diverting attention away from the main aim of this forum which is to promote BoS. BoS will be flyable from Oct, has a known list of aircraft, we`ve seen and had hands on experience of the product (some of us), we get regular video updates from a team that answers questions even if we don`t like the answer, and a gaffer that appears on the forum and TS regularly. Perhaps money in BoS`s direction is the better buy and more effort promoting BoS should be undertaken.

 

DCS will reach it`s 100k goal no doubt, beyond that I very much doubt it, I`ll leave my pledge as it is based upon my take on things. However I`ll be playing BoS in Oct for sure, and probably still be waiting for anything solid to be shown from DCS WW2.

As a carrier of gold bling-bling and lover of ww2 flight sims, what is best for consumers is good healthy variety and competition.

 

I think now seeing they are targeting Normandy 1944, which is quite different aim than BOS early Russia, this makes it even more appealing to support both!

 

I haven't seen anything yet here, although I have flown and own the DCS P51 - seems rather solid and well done!

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Hey Hansen

Nice to hear such a fresh perspective. Honestly, I think no-one ever considers the Chinese market when it comes to flight sims. Are they popular (hard question, I know)? Here in Japan there are almost no PC games at all in shops, so even fewer flight sim games.

You may chick this search:

https://www.google.com.hk/search?newwindow=1&safe=strict&q=%E9%9D%92%E5%B0%91%E5%B9%B4+%E6%A8%A1%E6%8B%9F%E9%A3%9E%E8%A1%8C&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.&bvm=bv.52164340,d.aGc,pv.xjs.s.en_US.CQsooEYev9Y.O&biw=1680&bih=935&dpr=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=zh-CN&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=Zqg2UqTqKqySiAfYnYDADA&sout=0&ved=0CCgQxxQoAA

 

We have a huge amounts of  young students flying the sims in China. Most of them are using IL-2、LOFC2 and FSX. They will feel better if there are some Chinese UI or IME support with these games.

We also looking for some solutions for future Local Network Plays. New sims like DCS, ROF and BOS shall have a link with the master server when palying a Local Network game. This is a problem for some stadium sim competions and in-school activities, which are difficult to access the WAN. So they can only use old style sims now.

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Nice, so Luthier for some reason thinks that a B-17 has more fans than both FW190 and Typhoon added up.

 

 

China is a huge market for sure.Don't they have terrible internet though? I seem to remember huge pings online with Chinese players, I assume downloading anything would be a pain.

The problem with China is that they have up to 85% illegal software (piracy) rate. So this huge market is only theory.

Edited by Mac_Messer
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Nice, so Luthier for some reason thinks that a B-17 has more fans than both FW190 and Typhoon added up.

 

 

The problem with China is that they have up to 85% illegal software (piracy) rate. So this huge market is only theory.

I'm sure we have 0% illegal software rate in ROF, DCS World now and in future BOS. And I can't find any sim‘s crack was made by Chinese. So this can be solved, don't worry about it.

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I think a massively successful crowdfunded flight sim is possible but it needs to offer more than just engineering to draw in casual gamers.

 

I think you need to promise a living world around the aeroplanes, think Star Citizen's space ports being replaced by an aircraft carrier or airbase you could walk around and interact with characters. A campaign that offers squad development and mission planning, RPG elements.

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Nice, so Luthier for some reason thinks that a B-17 has more fans than both FW190 and Typhoon added up.

 

 

The problem with China is that they have up to 85% illegal software (piracy) rate. So this huge market is only theory.

From Wiki, "is projected that China's Internet population will hit 718 million by 2013, accounting for 52.7 percent of the total population."

And that will probably explode in the years to come. How many are into flightsims? If marketed and labeled in Chinese maybe one percent? Of that one percent only fifteen percent will pay according to you that's 718 x 0,01 x 0,15 = 1,08?

One million paying users is not so bad. Even half or just a quarter of that is still good business.

Master

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@=CHN=CRASH:

I hope you can promote BoS for the Chinese market also and translate what needs to be translated. ;)

Historically and politically spoken I think the Chinese customer will be more interested in Russian planes and maps than in NW Europe.

With all the revenues from the far East and to please the new flightsim community we possibly might expect other theaters like Manchuria or Khalkin Gol. And not to forget the Flying Tigers of course. :)

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Nice, so Luthier for some reason thinks that a B-17 has more fans than both FW190 and Typhoon added up.

 

 

The problem with China is that they have up to 85% illegal software (piracy) rate. So this huge market is only theory.

 

I'm sure we have 0% illegal software rate in ROF, DCS World now and in future BOS. And I can't find any sim‘s crack was made by Chinese. So this can be solved, don't worry about it.

 

This is what I was thinking as well when I read the above statement.

 

I translated the words of Luthier (kickstarter primer) and the DCS P-51D Manual into Chinese, and post them in our community. Wish these can bring more Chinese players here, who's English is not good enough, to enjoy the sims.

http://bbs.dof.cn/index.php?showtopic=110526

http://bbs.dof.cn/index.php?showtopic=109339

537ff435jw1e0e5wm6hs2j.jpg

 

Very nice!!

 

I think a massively successful crowdfunded flight sim is possible but it needs to offer more than just engineering to draw in casual gamers.

 

I think you need to promise a living world around the aeroplanes, think Star Citizen's space ports being replaced by an aircraft carrier or airbase you could walk around and interact with characters. A campaign that offers squad development and mission planning, RPG elements.

 

I don't think there will ever be a "sim for everyone" ... Look at IL2.. as good as it has been from day one despite it's warts, there have always been folks who for whatever reason preferred something else.. be it CFS, Warbirds, FGA or AH .. or BoB .. It will always be that way and the "casual gamer" has WT among other things.. I think this myth ogf appealing to the casual gamer is overblown.. just as the myth of appealing to the "hard core" simmer is.. If sim developers has to depend on that hard core that is the most vocal they would all be doing something else.

 

From Wiki, "is projected that China's Internet population will hit 718 million by 2013, accounting for 52.7 percent of the total population."

And that will probably explode in the years to come. How many are into flightsims? If marketed and labeled in Chinese maybe one percent? Of that one percent only fifteen percent will pay according to you that's 718 x 0,01 x 0,15 = 1,08?

One million paying users is not so bad. Even half or just a quarter of that is still good business.

Master

 

Yes but based on the RoF/DCS and apparently future business model I am sure these numbers will be different.. I hope they will anyway because piracy will kill this genre for sure.. I think that lost revenue had a lot to do with the failure of CoD .. more than we know.

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I think a massively successful crowdfunded flight sim is possible but it needs to offer more than just engineering to draw in casual gamers.

 

Why should it be important to draw in casual gamers?  They will not like DCS WW2, and the DCS WW2 developers will not be interested in making them happy.

Edited by gavagai
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Yes but let's not forget that newcomers like China and Russia etc will only add positively to the equation no matter what the contribution will be.

Master

 

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=diagram+internettuses+worldwide&qpvt=diagram+internettuses+worldwide&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=171A71C7BB5D425FF567CC874D55F8E0F9725764&selectedIndex=17

Edited by Mastermariner
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Why should it be important to draw in casual gamers?

Because concerning combat flight simulation game, non-casual gamers represent a tiny population of a sub-niche market that will never be able to provide massive founds (the post you answered was about the condition for a "massively successful crowdfunded flight sim").

It's quite simple to understand.

I fully agree with Mogster on this one. In order to rise millions of dollars of crowdfunds, a game has to be much more than a hardcore combat flight sim.

Looks like the same harbour as used in the kickstarter puff pictures at 0.25.

Yes, this the Ajactio Bay in Corsica.

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Because concerning combat flight simulation game, non-casual gamers represent a tiny population of a sub-niche market that will never be able to provide massive founds (the post you answered was about the condition for a "massively successful crowdfunded flight sim").

It's quite simple to understand.

I fully agree with Mogster on this one. In order to rise millions of dollars of crowdfunds, a game has to be much more than a hardcore combat flight sim.

 

That part I agree with.. but I think to be successful it must be built in such a way that it has things to appeal to the center portion of that swath. IL2 was successful in part because you could go from super bullets and no CEM or stalls and spins  with arrows and icons on your map to closed pit with no aids at all and engine management that at the time was pretty darned good .. not to mention fuel and ammo management as well and very diverse flight models.. There was a time when IL2 was the hardcore sim and even back then it appealed to arcade style gamers... that is what any sim needs to do to be successful. It needs to be built in such a way so that as those casual gamers' needs and desire for more complex simming grows.. all they have to do is a mouse click.. not go to another product... or so that if they buy it and try it and find it too hard.. they can dial it back a notch and again.. not have to go to another product. I know people who initially tried IL2 found it too hard for them and walked away not even realizing that they could have just scaled it back.  Any new sim needs to be able to do these things (allow within it's build the turning of gamers to simmers)  if it is to be successful.

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Computing power has progressed to the point where something like the old Il-2 is pretty arcade.  We can do so much more now, coming to the point where aircraft systems management can be modeled as it is in the real thing.  I can see a place for a easier flight model and other helps for people that want them, but the moment the "casual gamers" become the focus of development I am out.

 

Maybe I missed the part about millions of dollars of funding.  All I saw was "massively successful," and without a number that is a subjective determination.

Edited by gavagai
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We can do so much more now, coming to the point where aircraft systems management can be modeled as it is in the real thing.

Yes..... but exactly because ot that trend, the limit is no more the technology itself, but the cost of it.

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I'm talking about raising a sum similar to the $20m Star Citizen has. The sort of budget a AAA game has so it'd be 100% crowd funded. 

 

After flying DCS AFM and ROF AFM  I find anything less sophisticated quite grating now, so AFM is a must for my product. I like the DCS Mustang a lot but I'm fine with systems required only for startup and shutdown to be left out, I find clickable cockpits nice but mostly unnecessary in WW2 planes also. I you get in the plane with the engine running, as was common in reality, then how many systems do you adjust while flying the DCS P51? Not that many. Levers and switches need to reflect my inputs in the cockpit, all gaugues need to be functional.

 

People are raving about the idea of walking round a space station or carrier ship in SC. Why not have the same in a flightsim, the interaction seems to be popular. Starting a mission in the ready room and running to your plane before getting in the cockpit, your crewchief shouting instructions/advice as you close the hood. Taking off from a bustling aerodrome. You land wounded and the mission finishes with you being helped from the cockpit and driven to the hospital in an ambulance. 

 

Obviously you can skip the RPG stuff if you wish or it bores you but I think a lot of people used to AAA first person titles would be attracted to it.  

Edited by Mogster
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I like the DCS Mustang a lot but I'm fine with systems required only for startup and shutdown to be left out, I find clickable cockpits nice but mostly unnecessary in WW2 planes also.

That's what i'm thinking waswell. I flew the DCS P-51 quite a bit now. It just feels great to take-off, land, stall, fight and just fly around with, but overall, the startup procedure gets old relatively quickly, so i can definately live without clickable cockpits. But maybe that's because i'm currently using the mouse for that. Maybe i should put the switches on my Warthog throttle and that would probably make things more interesting.

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For those players prefer Press "I" to start the engine, you can Press "RWin+Home" in DCS P-51D. DCS level sims just give you some more options. This should not be a bad thing. Clickpits are far more than cold startup and normal procedures. Many simmers like these detailed systems' rebuilding. I think they like BOS level sims, too. If someone try to make a high-fidelity sim, it shall be encouraged. 

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What Rama is getting at I think is clickable cockpits and full modelling of startup and shutdown are extremely time consuming and costly for the dev's. Also it seems many planes even from WW2 lack the references to model complete procedure effectively.

 

Anyway it appears we are going to get BOS and DCS WW2, hopefully we'll see how the two develop.  

Edited by Mogster
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What Rama is getting at I think is clickable cockpits and full modelling of startup and shutdown are extremely time consuming and costly for the dev's.

Not only.

With the increasing power of PC, you will be able to model internal plane and engine sub-systems (including damage and stress of indivudual parts) more and more accuratelly..... thus multiplying the complexity of the system (with the intereactions between the sub-systems), and leading to an exponential increase of the development costs.

The technology isn't the limit. The costs are.

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Im for clicable cocpits but pilot body also has to be simulated in cocpit, so i can control his hands with moving my hands and fingers with some device like kinect but more advanced, and turn ON/OFF switches not just use mouse. To have some high tech VR glasses would be must also, and idea of having control of pilot that can walk to his airplane and get in it or out when sortie is finished is also great ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWgjWqPz_fk ), but all that cost money and time and number of people working on game that we will never see in hardcore sims,

 

unless some crazy billionaire aviation fan decides to invest (throw away) money in building sim-game, insted buying 2-3 airplanes for him self to fly in them or simulate air fights :)
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Major developers wouldn't touch this genre with a ten foot pole.  Only dedicated combat flight sim enthusiast will create teams to take them on.  They are just too detailed, time consuming, and expensive to create, with very little hope of a stronger return on their dollar.   We want everything done now, and we don't want to pay much for it.   The much lower detailed original Il-2 evolved for well over ten years.  The genre will have to weather the last couple of generations of people who expect everything yesterday.  I actually like developments that make steady improvements with paid and free addons.  The paid addons adding features, aircraft, maps, and free patches fixing bugs.  Its a long process that I really enjoy, while upgrading my system to allow more detailed, resource hungry features, at a decent fps.  

 

 Unbelievably we now have three dedicated enthusiast teams creating the genre we enjoy.  The cost of supporting them is incredibly cheap compared to the years of entertainment value.  Especially for this relatively older and established community. 

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It's worth noting that EDGE has also been in development for professional flight simulation systems - the Corsica video may not be a true representation of what is going to be available via gaming software. As far as I'm aware, DCS have as yet to release any 'official' EDGE video. 

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Major developers wouldn't touch this genre with a ten foot pole.  Only dedicated combat flight sim enthusiast will create teams to take them on.  They are just too detailed, time consuming, and expensive to create, with very little hope of a stronger return on their dollar.   We want everything done now, and we don't want to pay much for it.   The much lower detailed original Il-2 evolved for well over ten years.  The genre will have to weather the last couple of generations of people who expect everything yesterday.  I actually like developments that make steady improvements with paid and free addons.  The paid addons adding features, aircraft, maps, and free patches fixing bugs.  Its a long process that I really enjoy, while upgrading my system to allow more detailed, resource hungry features, at a decent fps.  

 

 Unbelievably we now have three dedicated enthusiast teams creating the genre we enjoy.  The cost of supporting them is incredibly cheap compared to the years of entertainment value.  Especially for this relatively older and established community. 

 

 

What's come out of the last few years is that setting realistic goals for your project is important. After CloD I'm fine with projects starting small, but solid, as ROF did then building content over a couple of years.  We have to accept that the flight sim community is small and we're going to have to pay more than we have in the past for this stuff. Unfortunately modular titles like DCS and ROF mean you don't have to buy everything, unless you want to. The time when you could expect 20 flyables, 40 AI aircraft and a dynamic campaign for £30 really is over.

Edited by Mogster
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I will remain sceptical at all time until I can check out the free planes. And even then I might not buy it.

 

P.S. Bliss supporting the game is all the more reason not to support it :D

Bliss also supported BOS by buying the premium edition the highest possible monetary support.   He's a huge supporter of most combat flight sims, and has only been critical with valid points, when people have suggested the COD game engine was crap, and ROF's engine the holygrail.  Does his monetary support for BOS mean your withdrawing support for BOS. 

 

The free planes will be of the standard of current DCS aircraft like the P51, otherwise DCS won't let them see the light of day.  There is no guarantee that DCS WW2 will be a decent sim, as their is no guarantee that BOS will be either.  That said I'm supporting both of them.

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