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Developer Diary, Part 79

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Now that's a great idea!  Upvote everyone...

 

PS. Here's a suggestion for the campaign: make the number of survived missions in a row increase XP or whatever score you get from the missions and you will add an incredible amount of tension and realism to the experience, since survival becomes the highest priority as it pretty much should be. 

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I don't agree with it either. But you can't claim that the devs haven't been up front about this. The unlock system was presented long before the Early Access started and has been reconfirmed several times since then.

True. I always knew there would be some unlocks and that was part of the plan. They were never going to move from that. But This? Experience points? Unlocks for, ok not planes, but everything else even down to paint jobs? And airfield unlocks? Come on, what is this? World of tanks with wings?

 

"I'm sorry red leader - I know it's an emergency and all, but you can't land here. You haven't earned enough experience points to unlock this airfield. Kindly b*gger off there's a good chap".

 

Too late this time but I've learned my lesson as regards pre orders and early access.

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I'd like to ask those of you complaining the most, where is that perfect little world you inhabit where everything is exactly the way "you" want it to be? I'd love to live there too. There are aspects of BoS I'm not 100% sold on either, but we haven't even seen it finished yet. Wait until you get your grubby little mitts on it and actually fly it for a few hours, at least, before threatening everything and everyone even remotely involved. Some of you are worse than little kids. And it's usually the same group over and over and it has been almost from the beginning.

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There are unfortunately more consequences to these unlock things. If you have to unlock some special skins as a sort of reward it means that user made skins will not see light in the game - at least none that will be also visible in mp for others because user made skins would rip any sense off the idea to unlock skins through single player.

 

Another consequence is that at some time everyone will have the same "special" skin because it is just a question of time everyone has earned enough points for that one special skin.

Edited by sturmkraehe
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Don't focus on skin, it's nothing compare to equipment. Imagine i use the mission editor and did an MP jabo mission using FW190 for my squad. But if players have not unlock bombs in solo, what do you think we do !

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I'd like to understand from a game design point of view why the devs are making the grind in SP mandatory to unlock things that can be used in MP or with FMB. How many hours are required to play through the SP game?

 

MAC

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I'd like to understand from a game design point of view why the devs are making the grind in SP mandatory to unlock things that can be used in MP or with FMB. How many hours are required to play through the SP game?

 

MAC

 

+1

 

In for the full price of the game that offers a premium plainest should stand for use of those as such.
By definition a premium plane set does not carry unlocks, not in MP or SP.
The only use I can see for it is for mission/campaign makers working with parameters and triggers.
Have 2 ROF accounts, one with a full plaineset and the other almost, since 2010 and didn't spend more than  10 hours in carreer.
The fact of having BOS wont me make spend more than maybe a hand full of hours doing campaign missions, prob less just 'cause of the obligation in order to unlock.
Will make me think X2 before buying the other modules to.
Edited by West

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I think people have a right to voice reasonable concerns; if people are concerned about the unlocking system, then I believe it is appropriate that they can have a forum to voice those misgivings. Of course, they should do so in a reasonable and mature fashion, and if possible, suggest alternatives. Using invective or insults, naturally, does no one any good. One thing that I have noticed about these developers is that they do provide a forum for direct input from buyers, and they do seem keen on engaging with issues raised. This is all for the good. I for one have raised my concerns about the unlocking system, and I hope others do as well, and then I will leave it for the consideration of the devs.

 

Apoll

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Fair point made by MACADEMIC. I'm very much in the single player camp, but that is my own preference and choice. However, I can also see the unfairness that this XP points and unlock system imposes on those who prefer multiplayer only. Why should they have to play through the single player grind fest simply to gain unlocks for access to weapons or God knows what else needed to play certain mission types and scenario's in multiplayer? This system is bad for everyone, single player and multiplayer alike. Skins and weapons loadouts are just two obvious examples of problems likely to arise through this system. I would imagine many more will come to light eventually.

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Good points a Rivet. I agree with you. Why on earth they thought it a good idea from the get go, I don't really understand. I only hope they see the reaction, and it causes them to reconsider.

 

Apoll

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In the video, you can see that you have to fly in BF10F4 to unlock JU 87 and later BF109G2. Then, you have to fly in JU 87 to unlock HE111.

 

To resume, if you want to fly in HE111 you have to fly in the following plane :

BF109F4 -> Unlock JU87 and fly with it --> Unlock HE111 and fly with it to unlock all its weapon and skin.

 

Every plane have an unlock tree. That unlock tree is composed by skins, equipements, and for some planes, which are unlock with XP points. Have a look on that video

 

Go to 7.11 min.

 

You can see differents icons above the green line which is experience line. From the left to the right. First icon is an equipment, the second one is a skin.

 

 

Well, I guess I'm out then.

 

I had hoped that sensible heads would prevail and this FPS unlocks nonsense would be dropped.   Proper multiplayer use won't be possible with a system like this.

 

Forcing players to grind offline, or online for that matter, belongs in MMOs, not combat flight simulations.

 

This has to be 1C's doing, as no real flight sim developer or enthusiast would ever agree to adding grind for gold to a simulation.

 

I hope this changes, as I want this title to succeed, we need a good new WW2 sim, and this is it as far as I can tell.

 

Jason, say it ain't so.

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I also have some difficulties in understanding the benefit of the unlock system although I have to admit it does not perturb me as much if it is done reasonably even though I don't like it so much. Unlocking stuff is just a fashion that has come and will disappear and cannot be transported into other game genre like this stupid farming feature some game developers in the past thought a good idea to copy from some specific games to others (I really HATED this farming feature in Mass Effect 2. Luckily they cought sense and abandoned it for Mass Effect 3).

 

1. I consider all bomb loads to be locked at the beginning as a no go for the reason Habu mentioned.

2. I consider it to be a huge mega mistake to disallow basic user made content in the form of skins because otherwise the unlock system for such a feature would make no sense.

3. having to unlock planes and better weapons will just turn away more newbies who already have a hard life out there in mp and need all encouragement they can get. Don't make it less beginner accessible than combat flight sim already is. Such a thing may be ok for arcade flight games or ego shooters though. 

 

Personalization (skins including pilot skins and regiment decals) are imho much more important - in particular in a mp environment. Actually both 1C and 777 should know this from their past experience with their respective products.

Edited by sturmkraehe

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I don't mind unlocking cosmetic features but I agree that unlocking equipment is not going to be popular, especially for those who only get a limited amount of play time.

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The connection between Sp playtime to unlock MP features simply doesnt seem reasonable.

Why should a Mp player only, be forced to use the SP to use unlocks in his favourite MP mode.

 

On the other side it wouldnt be reasonable for a mature SP player, to be forced playing hours in MP ,for unlocking features to play in his favourite SP mode with(hypothetic case).

 

The user buy the product and should be free to use it in a wider frame.

 

I just dont understand the reason to restrict the player in this kind.

There is no financial interests in it,at least i cant see it.

Maybe it is to force the player checking both modes,which again would be far off in a simulation.

 

Unlocks are no features but annoying,even more to unlock them in cross-platform use (sp -> mp).

 

I hope the community can make the devs in reconsidering this .

Edited by 1./JG42Nephris

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I can't understand making a game this epic and detailed only to not have solid singleplayer element to actually use it all on. Rise of flights campaign would of been more then fine, and I was under the impression that's what it was going to be, just something where you can be in a squadron and track stats and actually feel like you're in a real campaign. Multiplayer isn't my thing and and it looks like i just wasted $100 :/ not that this isn't an amazing game, but for someone who only plays singleplayer I guess it's back to BMS and ROF  :( (ps it is still an awesome game guys and I take my hat off to developers who make games like this when others are raking it in with the same trash every year like COD)

 

This was my concern as well. Immesion is only found in single player in my opinion. MP is merely an arcade thing in my opinion. The single player should be the biggest focus and hopefully the DEv will open op to what peoplke want in a single player campaign. I know its not easy but I hope this inspires othe DEVs out there to take on this task!

 

Good job so far but Im not sure if it will be what Im looking for to be honest. At least they are doing something so thats good.

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There is none. It's a terrible decision.

That's how they do it in war thunder. Ever since world of tanks and war thunder, 1c wants to turn every new title into a new war thunder.

They copy everything they think got so many players hooked on world of tanks or war thunder.

 

The only thing they missed is that those are FREE, EASY TO PLAN GAMES. You can't expect to get that number of people with a $90+ premium, complex game. Flight sims with this kind of decent flight models are intimidating for some ppeople.you can't trick world of planes players to come over with silly unlocks and bling.

It's the FREE AND EASY that attracts them.

With this unlocks and xp they'll just scare the fans they already had. this people, the flight sim fans, are the ones that will get it first and write the reviews the masses are going to read later on.

Edited by Jaws2002
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Good job so far but Im not sure if it will be what Im looking for to be honest. At least they are doing something so thats good.

 

You know, I was just playing this latest version, and BoS is a beautiful game really.  And I get that Loft is trying to pick up atypical players from the FPS/mouse flyers world.  And I think its just fine that's he's built an SP Campaign to do so.  But to hope a Pat Wilson type will come along to build something more for the traditional combat flight sim players just doesn't make sense.  Its as if one play style has been traded for the other.  PWCG works great for me in creating a pilot career for the WWI world of dogfighting which is mostly all that went on in WWI (plus artillery spotting/observation).  But WWII was all about missions and for that you need a proper FMB of some kind.  And the Dev's have said they will be releasing some kind of FMB at some point in the future, but more info on what it will exactly be and when it will be released would go a long way in calming a lot of traditional player's angst and would help support sales at the initial release of BoS, I would think.  I think a lot of the disappointment from traditional players is the fact that an FMB seems almost like a secondary feature rather than a core feature in much of the communication from the Dev's.

 

Loft's background with IL-2 1946 seems to be from the persective of a hardcore MP guy.  And in his campaign presentation video he talks about FPS games I've heard of but never played.  I think there would be crossover between MP flight sim players and FPS games as both offer fast furious action, but not so much between SP flight sim players and FPS games.  For me the frustration comes from the fact that here is a beautiful new IL-2 branded combat fight sim that is missing the most important core feature of all (to me)...a "cut us loose" FMB.  And the logic that BoS is primarily focused on SP game play, but without a FMB at launch has many SP players upside down in frustration.  I think concrete information on a FMB/ME (whatever they want to call it) and an admission by the Dev's that an FMB is HUGELY important to many players will go a long way to calm the waters.

Edited by Bucksnort
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That's how they do it in war thunder. Ever since world of tanks and war thunder, 1c wants to turn every new title into a new war thunder.

They copy everything they think got so many players hooked on world of tanks or war thunder.

 

Well, copying a formula one game uses trying to emulate its success doesn't really work. Look at World of Warcraft for a prime example...many MMOs have tried emulating WoW's success and huge subscription base by copying its gameplay, and how many have succeeded? I can't think of any, but I can think of a few failures though.

 

If BoS is trying to entice WT pilots then it will probably just get the "simulator battles" pilots, and that is IF those pilots don't mind flying on the Eastern Front for a while in a small planeset (relative to WT). Those who play arcade battles are the vast majority in WT, so I seriously doubt that style of pilot cares enough about how much better the FMs would be in BoS relative to WT, which is of course the main selling point when comparing the two.

 

I don't think they are trying to copy WT directly because doing so makes no sense at all. Just looking at them both simplistically in terms of main content... BoS has 10 planes and 2 maps, but how many more planes and maps does WT have? I honestly don't know but it's more than BoS right? There is simply a ton more content for WT players to use (albeit grinding or paying for it) so when marketing BoS to WT players what does BoS have to offer, other than FMs which arcade players don't care about, that WT already doesn't have and more?

 

The next thing to probably piss off a lot of people on these boards will be how they are implementing skins. I've no idea how it will work, but the pessimist in me says that since they have kept quiet about exactly how skins will be handled for this long into the early access means it probably won't be received well by the online community. I'd love to be proven wrong on all this though.

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With this unlocks and xp they'll just scare the fans they already had.

 

I have been very anxious awaiting to see what the campaign is going to be like. I was fairly impressed with ROF's beta career mode.

 

Well I just started watching the recorded feed tonight, and I will say I did not watch it all , maybe 2/3'rds.

I will just say my excitement has waned considerably...

 

XP, unlock planes, unlock bombs/rockets, skins, even airfields..., only normal or expert settings, no custom... 

I will have to wait for the release product and try it before I can determine if this is something I am going to like or not.

Edited by dburnette
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Trying to get the WT crowd with XP, unlocks, and Hollywood style smoke damage model, simple sp campaign with no historical squads, preset settings and a very arcade HUD.

 

Trying to get Sim fans by using the IL2 name, working on FMs, talking about historical details.

 

When you cater to all, you please none.

 

This game going to be the new IL2 with a huge future, or a War Thunder with cem? It all depends on if devs gives robust mod tools and quickly.

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What part of the planes will not be locked except in the campaign is so freakin hard to understand!  One more time:  if you are playing RoF campaign, beta or Pat Wilson, and it's 1916, you can't take a Focker D7f up against those Dh2's no matter if you want to or not.  That plane is locked to you until you grind it out till about September of 1918!  Does that seem unfair to you?  Does that seem like a rip off to you?  It doesn't to me! 

 

The plane lock shown above has absolutely nothing to do with QMB or with MP.  NOTHING!  Multiple Devs have posted in here that no one will have to unlock a plane that they purchased outside of the campaign.  It's not going to happen.

 

Mods and skins the jury is out and they need to clarify the situation.  Personally, I hope their is a wall of seperation between the career and the rest of the game, but honestly, skins and mods are secondary to me.  Still wont make me happy but I could live with it.

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Well SYN mike 77, the campaign SP experience and the unlock system IS the point; no one's complaining much about the MP and QMB bits, since, as you point out, that will not be subject to the daft unlock system (I think...). The SP campaign WILL be; that's the whole point of the complaints, and I for one think it is I'll advised. I don't want to have to go through several planes just to get to my favourite: the HE-111.

 

Apoll

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What part of the planes will not be locked except in the campaign is so freakin hard to understand!  One more time:  if you are playing RoF campaign, beta or Pat Wilson, and it's 1916, you can't take a Focker D7f up against those Dh2's no matter if you want to or not.  That plane is locked to you until you grind it out till about September of 1918!  Does that seem unfair to you?  Does that seem like a rip off to you?  It doesn't to me! 

 

The plane lock shown above has absolutely nothing to do with QMB or with MP.  NOTHING!  Multiple Devs have posted in here that no one will have to unlock a plane that they purchased outside of the campaign.  It's not going to happen.

 

Mods and skins the jury is out and they need to clarify the situation.  Personally, I hope their is a wall of seperation between the career and the rest of the game, but honestly, skins and mods are secondary to me.  Still wont make me happy but I could live with it.

 
The situation your explaining doesn't match what is show in video and what they say IL-2 BoS AQM will be.
 
Your explaining airplanes being locked because they are from different years, we will have situation where if you wont to play campaign with Ju-87 you first have to play with BF-109F4 to collect some amount XP to unlock Ju-87 missions in campaign, and be able to play Ju-87 missions to unlock 2x37mm guns for QM or MP or costum campaigns. Bomber pilot has to be first fighter pilot to be able to be bomber pilot?
 
In video around 6:40min you can see they are talking about probably having one more version of game where you have only 2 airplanes unlocked in game and you have to play AQM to unlock rest of the airplanes. Is this for non founders?
 
For unlocks of equipment and skins its also clear from video and from Russian forum of the game, that they are to be used in all mods only after you play SP AQM. And whole game is based on this from start, so dont think this will be changed just because few of founders think its not good, its just noise on forum...
 
I for one hoped they will test this unlock system in EA perioud but that was not posible because AQM is not finished still, i wonder how players would like to play on Eagle Nest and Syndicate when they have to unlock their gunpods and rockets in SP first.
 
From Lofts posts in DD here and on Russian forum its clear why hes making game like this, and it looks he strongly belives this is the way game should go to have future. Its his game his choise, i for one dont believe that unlock system is way to go and not having costum settings in SP difficulties and costum graphic settings is also strange way to go for this type of game
Edited by Yakmaster

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I still have not seen or heard one shred of evidence that we will have to unlock planes to fly in QMB or MP. 

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Slightly different issue from the "unlock" question: I have not yet worked out if the campaign missions involve AI planes in your formation and if so how.

 

For instance, is the player the leader or can he start as a wingman? Has this been discussed yet?

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I still have not seen or heard one shred of evidence that we will have to unlock planes to fly in QMB or MP. 

 

QMB for SP is pretty useless as it is combat in your face immediately...there is no immersion of time on patrol to find the enemy or bombing mission transit (max separation is only 10,000 meters).  MP is not for many SP players.  So all we have left for realistic and fun SP play is the new SP Campaign and that is our concern.

 

Since at least some of the Syndicate players have access to the mission editor it sounds like you are getting what you want, which is great.  Many SP players might not be.

Edited by Bucksnort
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LoL

 

"GRIND"  = Fly interesting missions ...is that not why you bought the game...

 

"UNLOCK" = progress through different types of aircraft and learn about them..maybe even try some you would never even fly and get more out of your purchase

 

SIMPILOT = drama queen

 

having to invest a couple of hours in the game = Too much effort

 

LoL :)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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QMB for SP is pretty useless as it is combat in your face immediately...there is no immersion of time on patrol to find the enemy or bombing mission transit (max separation is only 10,000 meters).  MP is not for many SP players.  So all we have left for realistic and fun SP play is the new SP Campaign and that is our concern.

 

Just because you dont play QMB it doesnt make it useless. A lot of people want to jump into the action and are not always looking for immersion or time on patrol at all.

Maybe on Tuesday nights after work some people might want a couple of quick matches and on a Sunday they might want longer SP missions or spending a few hours on the MP servers.

 

Let's just be mindful of everyones needs/wants and not just our own.

 

Dakpilot, on 22 Sept 2014 - 01:42, said:

LoL

"GRIND"  = Fly interesting missions ...is that not why you bought the game...

"UNLOCK" = progress through different types of aircraft and learn about them..maybe even try some you would never even fly and get more out of your purchase

SIMPILOT = drama queen

having to invest a couple of hours in the game = Too much effort

LoL  :)

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Thank you. I was going to write that in the morning but I thought it might not be worth the time.

I'm glad you did it though. It's just what I was thinking.

A lot of people feel very entitled and think they have a vote on what the devs decide to do.

Edited by CBZ323

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Im usually on board with 1CGS in their decisions as, up to this point tbey have really chosen a good path. But this doesnt make any sense to limit MP until SP is played. Its going to play hell with designing missions for people on our server. And that is honestly all i care about. Im an MP player who wants to provide realistic/immersive scenarios. This decision will hamper =SE='s ability to do either. AT least at the beggining. That actually brings up a good point. How long will it take to acquire the other planes and weapons. If its a day or two of playing then tbis is kind of a non issues. It would function as a tutorial. If its 10 hours of grinding. That will cause many more problems.

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S!

 

The SP unlocks can be a pain for some, but as it seems the XP given does not be very low. Maybe a few missions at most for one unlock. So I can live with it. And I find SP a good way for me to get back on the saddle again after a long break from flight sims :P What really bothers me are the graphics presets, I do not want their view of graphics quality stuffed down my throat. I can adjust my settings, thank you. Less post processing gimmicks = better performance and usually better IQ.

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I consider all bomb loads to be locked at the beginning as a no go for the reason Habu mentioned.

 

Same here, along with rockets. These weapons were the basic tools with which both sides attacked the enemy on the ground. I'm fine with having to unlock the more exotic/rare weapons like 37 mm cannons and field mods like windscreens and headrest armor, but restricting basic, commonly-used weapons just doesn't make any sense.  

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Thank the shareholders and the marketing team for putting so many WTFs into the final game. What bothers me the most is they took away the ability to customize settings. Why? What is the logic behind that decision?

 

What we get is not always what we want, so I will enjoy the game as is and wait for the 3rd party devs to work some magic.

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Its a 360 degree changes RoF [777 Studios] vs BoS [1CGS] that are made here. Cut out from RoF what was good but introduce something new with BoS that never reach the RoF Quality?  Hidden the SP Campaign from Early Access were we could take a closer look how their idea works. Thats why Early Access is for it!!!!!!

 

The SP mission should be very interesting with a very high Quality if someone force me to play them how he want to get all planes, skins, Loadouts. I hope not to see there 0815 missions! Lets see what a update we get next friday? Maybe the SP Campaign to try out?

Edited by Superghostboy

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In video around 6:40min you can see they are talking about probably having one more version of game where you have only 2 airplanes unlocked in game and you have to play AQM to unlock rest of the airplanes. Is this for non founders?

 

 

There is a post by Loft on the Russian forums that seems to indicate that its for non-gold founders.

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Guys, didnt they told us that unlocking planes is only for SP? In MP we will be able to fly every plane from the store...? Or Im missing something?

I think its a bad idea to "divide" community with premiums and other players who will need to unlock planes. Think about the virtual squadrons.

You just cant use a formula from MMO titles on modern IL2 simulation..that doesnt work and that will not bring more players...

This is not WOW..this is not WOT...this is IL2 BOS. 

Edited by dragon76

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I'd like to understand from a game design point of view why the devs are making the grind in SP mandatory to unlock things that can be used in MP or with FMB. 

 

Thought a bit more about my own question.

 

I came to the conclusion that the devs need to offer rewards for playing the game. What could they hand out other than feature unlocks? That's what they have, nothing else is available.

 

Why? Because the people who already are familiar with the genre and who buy and play the game just for their enjoyment, without any gratification other than playing the game, are not enough to justify the investment. And let's be honest, to fly/play in exactly that way requires a long lead in time where you practice and fail, until you become somewhat proficient. We all got started somewhere, and it was hard to master dogfighting from cockpit view on a PC. Most of the initial learning takes place in SP, and once you step into the MP arena you'll immediately find out that that learning was by far not enough.

 

To survice as a franchise, this game needs all the players it can get. The devs have to make game design decisions that keep the newcomers/less proficient players engaged and stay with the game. Making improvements measureable and rewarding success in SP is their chosen method. I'm actually surprised they're not offering an Arcade mode with out-of-cockpit views and plenty of helpers. That would have brought in even more players, but as experience shows, most of those would never progress into cockpits.

 

This tells me that the devs have an earnest interest in the cultivation of the new IL2 Sturmovik franchise as the non-trivial platform of the future in WWII flight simulations. They could have chosen an easier route, but didn't.

 

So now we may ask ourselves, well all good and fair, why not let the newcomers play their SP campaigns but let us old hands in MP have all the goodies available right from the start, without need to play through campaigns for that?

 

In my opinion, because that might fail to engage and cultivate the people they want to win over to the platform. To have the goods, everyone has to go through the same curriculum. The goods are the only carrots they have to give.

 

Accepting this the way it is, and playing through the SP campaigns, is a small price for the founders to pay towards the success of the platform.

 

So let's climb down from our high horses, and let's do it!

 

:good:

 

MAC

Edited by MACADEMIC
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Agree with what you say Mac but as founders you DONT have to unlock anything..... :)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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This was my concern as well. Immesion is only found in single player in my opinion. MP is merely an arcade thing in my opinion. 

 

What really?!?!

 

MP IS arcade like if you just hop onto public servers for quick shenanigans, which I'm sure is all you've been doing. However online campaigns is where the real immersion is. Squadrons filled with real people create historical scenarios where multiple squadrons meet up and play them out. It makes for so much more immersion than fighting predictable computer opponents. Not to mention you communicate like you would have to your wing-men and perform real air maneuvers to keep and change formations depending on the situation. There is nothing more immerion like that just those couple of examples I've given you.

 

If you think the most immersion comes from singleplayer then you will be missing out. I suggest you join a decent online squadron and experience it for yourself when things get underway. 

Edited by =69.GIAP=RADKO
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