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Panthera

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  1. @IAmNotARobot Is it possible you guys will look for the Eric Brown report, or will the community have to step up in this case? (not meant to come across negatively btw) Also just out of curiousity what stick force in kg pr.G do you have set for the 262 at 700 km/h TAS at sea level atm ? Wondering since full elevator deflection stops after ~500 km/h ingame it seems, which even if we go by the Russian figures must be off.
  2. Well now that we probably know where the files are located, I think it would definitely be in 777's interest to go look for them as it would ensure a better possible simulation of the 262. I think this is esp. important considering that the information provided by Eric Brown in his book indicates that the stick forces of the ingame aircraft are much too high.
  3. IMO there is no reason for not adding this plane. It was more numerous in the air than atleast a few of the aircraft we already have, incl. the 1.98ata K4. I am also of the opinion that it should come with a +21 lbs boost engine mod. Should also note that it would be sure to earn the devs quite a few pennies as we're talking about the definitive Spitfire to see action in WW2, an aircraft which sadly has rarely been present in any other WW2 flight sim.
  4. ^This right here. Short and simple.
  5. Panthera

    ME 262

    Not according to the manual, here it was recommended only using the trimmable stabilator carefully to trim the aircraft level, it was advised against using it to trim yourself out of a dive as it was very sensitive and could easily lead to overcontrol. In other words the aircraft required only small amounts of trimming in flight, and full elevator deflection was available irrespective of trim setting thanks to the stabilator design.
  6. Well Brown already published a summary of his report himself in his book "Wings of the Luftwaffe", so that could explain why no'one else since really have felt the need to basically do a repeat. But just to reiterate what I said earlier, if the RAF measured stick forces at 2.72 kg pr. G at 645 km/h (i.e. ~19 kg for 6 G & ~21.4 kg for 7 G), then the stick forces in our ingame representation must be way above what it was/is in the real aircraft at that particular speed as it is currently not possible to pull full elevator deflection even at 500 km/h ingame. In addition to this the trimmable stabilizer doesn't feel anything like the sensitive control surface it was reported to be in real life, requiring (or rather demanding) only small adjustments to trim with speed, where'as ingame it still feels very insensitive and carefree to operate requiring quite a bit of adjustment to trim the aircraft level with speed. These two issues as well the as the operation of the slats is where I believe the FM can improve.
  7. Tracked down the following on the Kew archives: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Me262 Seems there's a lot of information available. Should be possible to find Brown's report in there, incl. the stick force measurements.
  8. Well realistically you should be able to put the aircraft into an accelerated stall at low speeds even with it trimmed for 650 km/h as the trimmable tailplane only needs very small change in incidence to cause a large change in pitch (something heavily weighed in the manuals), and since this type of design ensures full elevator deflection irrespective of trim it should be possible to generate more than enough downforce to cause an accelerated stall at practically any speed from lift off to 650 kmh whilst being trimmed for the latter. The reason being that full elevator deflection changes the camber and relative AoA of the tailplane to such a degree that the small upwards trim of the tailplane when trimmed for level flight at 650 kmh should have no noticable impact on actual pitch authority at lower speeds. As for the performance, I'm not sure, to me it seems pretty alright (?), it certainly keeps its speed in turns well. But you're right that at 500 km/h the 262 should out accelerate the propeller driven aircraft, infact it probably should start to slightly do so already in the 450 km/h range. That said I haven't come around to testing the acceleration and climb performance of the 262 side by side with the later props ingame yet.
  9. At 645 km/h (400 mph) it is at this point in time not possible to pull full elevator deflection, or even enough to black out the pilot, in the Me262 ingame. Well since the slats work by means of air pressure, that is as soon as the stagnation point on the LE moves low enough they are forced out, the greater the speed the greater the pressure forcing them out will also be. In addition to this the 262's slats used a roller track mechanism where extension was further aided by any increase in G forces. So really they should work just fine at any speed where the critical AoA can realistically be approached. In other words it should not be possible to stall the wing without the slats having come out prior in order to delay this. For comparisons sake the exact same roller track design is said to have been used on the F-86 where the limit of operation was listed as 0.65 mach (800 km/h), but then again the aircraft also couldn't enter an accelerated stall at that speed without disintigrating
  10. Correct, by design they will come out as soon as the wing approaches the critical AoA, the 262 featuring no locks to prevent this. I'm confident the developers will realize this as well. Also thanks for the insight in regards to the archives at Kew Bert, I will try to contact them! 👍 Yes, however I still think it seems a bit high considering the forces at 650 km/h and 1500m. If it was M 0.86 @ 3000 m I would agree as we know the controls very soon after that became extremely stiff due to compressibility. Either way atm we are unable to black out the pilot at any speed without "cheating" and using the trimmer, which really shouldn't be the case, but I think the devs can see that too when it only required 2.72 kg pr. G at 645 km/h. Again if we assume a Cl of 1.4 youshould be able to black out the pilot in the 262 already at ~500 km/h with elevator control alone pretty much irrespective of what speed you're trimmed for.
  11. You're most welcome, and thank you for the quick reaction and attention to the issue I will see if I can dig up the original documentation for the tests, or perhaps get someone else to give a hand.
  12. I find that very curious considering the very different findings of the RAF. I think this requires further investigation. One thing is for sure, if the RAF recorded a stick force of 2.72 kg pr. G at 645 km/h and 1500 m, then something significant would have to be wrong with the Soviet example if they werent even coming close to replicating this. The most likely theory IMO would be that the servo tabs were disconnected, but since you claim this wasn't the case then I am currently at a loss.
  13. Ok, but it would seem it was done with the servo tabs disconnected? The same was the case in a post war US test which had similar findings, i.e. stick (& rudder) forces becoming high past 350 mph. By comparison the RAF testing of Me262A1's with servo tabs connected, and maintained by German crews, established a stick force of 2.72 kg pr. G at 645 km/h (400 mph) and 1500 meters height. I really don't think this can be ignored.
  14. Yes that I noticed I think you took it too litterally however, as I don't think it was intended to be read as the slats being locked above 450 km/h (the mechanism feature no locking system), instead it was worded like that so as to make Allied test pilots aware that when the slats come out at this speed during a climb or gentle turn at what in a conventional aircraft would be considered high speed, then it is perfectly normal behavior and not something to worry about. Hence the original briefing didn't actually mention anything about turning. I am quite sure of this as handley page slats don't care about speed, purely about the location of the stagnation point. As soon as the critical AoA is approached there is nothing which will stop them from coming up, they are infact forced out by pressure.
  15. The only thing I can find which could be interpreted as such is the following line in the rather brief post war manual initially given to Allied pilots: If you ask me however the above is not intended to mean that the slats will stay in nomatter what above 450 km/h, instead it is to make the pilot aware that when the slats come out at this speed during a gentle turn or climb at what in a conventional aircraft would be considered quite a high speed, then it is perfectly normal and not something to worry about. I say this because them being locked in simply can't happen without some sort of system lock, which the 262 does not have In other words as soon as the stagnation point moves down far enough the slats will have to pop open, it's what they're designed to do and there would be no point in preventing them from doing this. For confirmation you can see that it is worded differently in the briefing of Hans Fey (which the above manual was based on): Do you by chance have a link to said reference? It sounds very high, esp. compared to the other conventional aircraft of the period without any form of servo assist. Could this perhaps be without the servo tabs connected? I remember this was a factor in at least one Allied test where both the elevator & rudder servo tabs weren't connected) Thankfully Captain Eric "Winkle" Brown, RAF's chief test pilot, is quite specific on the topic: "The normal range of flight characteristics from aerobatic maneuvres to the stall revealed the Me 262 as a very responsive and docile aeroplane, leaving one with a confident impression of a first class combat aircraft for both fighter and ground attack roles. Harmony of controls was pleasant, with a stick force per 'g' of 2.72 kg (6lb) at mid-CG position and a roll rate of 360 degrees in 3.8 seconds at 645 km/h (400 mph) at 1525m (5000 ft)." Source: Wings of the Luftwaffe: Me262 by Capt. Eric "Winkle" Brown, Page 252. So as pr. Eric Brown who flew a Me262A1 with connected servo tabs (it was maintained & serviced in the UK by a German crew), it would take ~19 kg to pull 6 G's at 645 km/h, which is a lot more along the lines of what you'd expect from a servo assisted tailplane design such as the 262's. That being said you should also be able to black out the pilot in the 262 a lot sooner along the speed range than that, infact at something like 550 km/h if we assume a modest slatted Cl of ~1.4, a very high (for most pilots at the time) ~7 G's could be pulled instantanously at sea level. However ingame I am unable to black out the pilot even at 600-700 km/h via the elevators alone, something which should be easily possible according to the testing conducted by Brown with RAF. Also as mentioned in the briefing of Hans Fey above, the aircraft was said to "turn much better at high speed than at low speed", which would seem to indicate the elevator forces were sufficiently light not to inhibit maneuvering at high speed.
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