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Which joystick to go for - CH or TM?


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#1 Firefly

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 12:07

Hello simmers,

 

I'm in the unenviable (because of the sheer number of joysticks on the market) position of having to choose a proper flight controller for the next couple of years. I'm looking for a solid, long-lasting and precise piece of equipment compatible with many sims and other hardware (i.e. throttle and rudder pedals). I've done some reading and narrowed my choice down to two sticks:

 

- CH Fighterstick (plus Pro Throttle);

 

- Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog.

 

Where I live both sets can be obtained for a similar price, both also come with a 2-year warranty.

 

In the past I had numerous joysticks from other brands. They found use in WW2 Fighters, European Air War, vanilla IL-2, Pacific Fighters and Forgotten Battles. My first one was an MS Sidewinder (the non-Force Feedback version). I then went through a Logitech Wingman 3d (nothing spectacular, though it broke completely after 2 years of use) and a nondescript Saitek (which wasn't bad, but again wasn't spectacular either).

 

Since I'm an adult gamer now I'd really like to buy something that will last for a couple of years. I'd rather spend more hard-earned cash on a good piece of kit than replace expendable sticks every year or so.

 

What I'm asking you guys for is a recommendation based on hands-on experience with either of them (ideally both). I haven't used a joystick in a couple of years, so you can probably imagine that I'd rather do this properly than get disappointed by an unreliable, plasticky piece of crap resembling a broomstick.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

S!

Firefly


Edited by Firefly, 29 July 2013 - 12:19.

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#2 StG2_Manfred

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 13:46

At the moment I'm still flying with my X52 Pro, until it breaks....

 

but what I've heard from my team mates which using the Warthog is only good. They are really happy with the quality and the feeling they get from the stick. Can't say anything about the other one.


Edited by StG2Manfred, 29 July 2013 - 13:48.

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#3 kestrel79

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 15:51

I'd throw the x52 pro into your list. It's a great stick for ww2 sims. All the dials on the throttle are great for trim tabs.


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#4 Tektolnes

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 17:40

Warthog. I use the X52 pro and it's fine but I've tried out the Warthog and I'll be upgrading to that once I put some cash aside. It's just more precise and has a better feel.


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#5 Firefly

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 18:29

Manfred, Tektolnes, thanks for the info about the Warthog, based on reviews and user opinions it seems to be very well made and has a great feel. Kestrel, as I said in the OP I had a Saitek stick before and was rather underwhelmed. Of course times have changed and so did Saitek, but I'm willing to pay more for a premium product.


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#6 gavagai

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 18:47

I can't see playing any WW2 prop sim without a FFB joystick.  Most do not realize what they are missing.  It's like track ir or rudder pedals.  You can get a msffb2 for less than $100, and it's a sturdy joystick.


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#7 crossfade

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 19:20

Go with the warthog m8 i had the 52 and it is good but after awhile you get problems with some buttons not working and the warthog feels so good the build quality is beyond words take it from someone that has had both (still using the hog  even if you have to pay more go with the TH.

 

S~


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#8 crossfade

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 19:27

I can't see playing any WW2 prop sim without a FFB joystick.  Most do not realize what they are missing.  It's like track ir or rudder pedals.  You can get a msffb2 for less than $100, and it's a sturdy joystick.

 I would agree i had the microsoft ffb stick when il2 came out and i could not fault it one bit the feedback is great you feel the plane get light and the stall coming it is the best stick to put on your lap/desktop and that is the problem with it what people want and need now is more functionality ie: HOTAS and that was the let down with microsoft if they had made a Hotas set with ffb i would not have a warthog now  


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#9 Firefly

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 19:31

Gavagai, I don't really need FFB. I've used it for a while on both the Logitech and the Saitek. While it adds a lot to immersion I found it to be a hindrance in competitive online play. Crossfade made a good point about the additional functionality of newer joysticks - the fact that I'll be able to fly a plane without having to use the keyboard would make this much easier for me.

 

Crossfade, thank you, that speaks volumes about the Warthog's build quality. So far all opinions about the Thrustmaster I read were positive (though some Amazon reviewers had concerns about its reliability). Does anyone have any experience with CH?


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#10 gavagai

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 20:59

Gavagai, I don't really need FFB. I've used it for a while on both the Logitech and the Saitek. While it adds a lot to immersion I found it to be a hindrance in competitive online play. 

 

With Loft aiming for DCS level fidelity in the BoS flight models, you're going to change your mind about that!  With the DCS P-51 ffb users have a distinct advantage in detecting the onset of a stall and trimming the aircraft for smooth flight.

 

Then again, I haven't heard of these ffb sticks from saitek or logitech, so they must not be very good.  A msffb2 is also one of the joysticks of choice for competitive pilots in Rise of Flight.  Look at what sits on the desks of 777 developers....


Edited by gavagai, 29 July 2013 - 21:00.

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#11 WklinkTomCofield

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 23:42

I've been a CH guy my whole life.  I have tried Saitek and Thrustmaster equipment and it has been very good but I continue to go back to CH.  I have never had a problem with any CH joystick or throttle.  Granted, it is a lot lighter throw than the TM series of joysticks but that is a personal preference on my part. 


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#12 312_HeRa

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 13:55

I preffere msffb2 too. I have tried many and have to say, that flying WWII planes without FF is like fly without trackir or ruder pedals.  (but I know many good pilots without FF joysticks)

My opininon:Buy msffb2 on ebay and Warthog(very good, very precise , seems like lifetime warranty made joysticks)  and you will see , if you like stalls or spins recovery more with FF or without.

Advantages of FF mentioned in comments here.

 

My equipment: msffb2(I have bought on Ebay) , Saitek X52, Saitek Throtle quadrant, Saitek pedals, trackir

 

See you in the air :)

 

312_HeRa


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#13 14/JG5_Adrifter

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 04:55

I really like the CH fighterstick pro. It's very accurate, sturdy, and has decent tension and button placement. I had an X52 before it and the CH felt like a big step up in terms of precision control.

 

I did however keep my X52 throttle because I really like the slider for flaps, and the knobs for trim (when they still worked). Once the knobs on the X52 died I got a CH throttle quadrant for trim, pitch, and radiator control. Having six sliders in addition to a throttle with a slider on it is really nice. I highly recommend the CH throttle quadrant in addition to the Ch throttle if you want to map each trim axis to a slider, as well as a few other things like prop pitch, flaps, etc.


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#14 I/JG27_Zimmi

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 05:04

I switched to the Warthog a couple of months ago and I'm up to now very satisfied with it. Nonetheless I'll keep my 2 Saitek X-52s for my other PC. The Warthog is something real different and I especially like the force that you have to apply on the axes and buttons as well as its precision. However,  I'm yet not sure if I'll keep my saitek pro flight rudder pedals or buying something new, which fits to the Warthog in precision and build quality.


Edited by I/JG27_Zimmi, 31 July 2013 - 05:05.

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#15 Matt

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 08:09

The Warthog is quite special.

 

The spring of the stick is very strong and definately not everybody's taste. So i would recommend to try it out first. Also if you want to make use of all the switches of the throttle, you will most likely spend quite a bit of time to create scripts, to make the commands of BOS work (i'm guessing BOS input commands will be similar to ROF).

 

The Warthogs stick also has a problem with a rubber O-ring, which tends to rip quite easily (it did on mine). The O-ring is basically supposed to reduce wear/tear, but it's also making it less accurate imo. The overall construction is very solid though and atleast the throttle should last a lifetime.

 

I'm still very happy with the Warthog and would definately recommend it. Even though i'll probably test the FFB2 together with the Warthogs throttle for BOS. Maybe some day someone will create a FFB mod for the Warthog. :biggrin:


Edited by hq_Matt, 31 July 2013 - 08:10.

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#16 coldViPer

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 08:49

I bought CH Fighterstick, Pro Throttle and Pro Rudder Pedals about 5 years ago and never had any problems! Very happy with this HOTAS setup. Very accurate and long-lasting.


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#17 Revvin

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 20:49

I've had my CH Fighterstick and Pro Throttle for 10 years and they are still going strong. I like the light spring action for WWI & WWII sims. The Pro Throttle is an ugly little beast and not everyone likes the slide action of the throttle but I found it to be good for small throttle corrections when flying in formation as I did years ago flying bombers in Aces High and Warbirds.
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#18 Firefly

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 21:57

Thanks chaps, I appreciate all the input.

 

I've done some more reading and went back to my favourite unofficial IL-2 forum to check out opinions about the Warthog. Although the Thrustmaster is almost universally praised for its incredible feel and precision, almost all users have had technical problems with it, most of which required sending it back for a service (under warranty of course). No such problems are to be found with CH equipment - some of you have had your joysticks and throttles for half of my lifetime and they didn't break even once. One of the users on the aforementioned forum said that if you want something that you can easily customise to fit your needs you should go with Thrustmaster. On the other hand, CH offers straight-out-of-the-box functionality that I'm expecting from a premium product made by people who sell their stuff to governments and security agencies.

 

I'm probably going to buy a full set of CH equipment - a Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, Throttle Quadrant (will be very useful for setting trim, flaps, fuel mixture and propeller pitch) and Rudders. It's going to be a hefty bill, but I'd rather spend a pretty penny on quality stuff than a solid-looking stick that will keep me wondering if it will ever break. Sure, the Fighterstick isn't as pretty as the Warthog, but in the long run it's reliability that matters the most. Ask any long-time Lexus LS400 owner if he'd ever like to switch to a BMW 7-series of the same vintage - my guess is that the answer will be a universal 'no'. :-)


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#19 trumps

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 12:08

Congrats on your purchase, i can assure you that you won't be sorry, ihave been using a combat stick, prothrottle, and pedals since 2000, and in that time it has had a ridiculous amount of use, and never a problem, it would have to be the most accurate contol unit on the market, the long lightish throw of the stick as against many other brands really does work in its favour imho, as it makes fine adjustments easy and accurate. the controlmanager software is also fantastic, and dead simple to configure. apart from the addition of the quadrant one day i figure on this being the only hotas i will ever need, unless CH bring out something new (heaven forbid) it has stood the test of time, and i figure that is why they have never updated it!


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#20 CPSWolff

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 15:50

For all the sims I've played I've found that having Saitek X52 along with the Razer Estromo and the Razer Naga mouse I have the perfect combination. The Saitek has been a great stick, and the Estromo allows that instant touch that you don't get reaching for the keyboard. The Naga mouse with it's 12 buttons really fills out any need you have.


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#21 LLv34_Untamo

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 11:20

S!

 

TM Cougar lasted seven years of heavy use :) .. Now happy owner of TM Warthog, which feels awesome compared to the clunky feel that Cougar had. Warthog has the Hall-sensor, so it will never wear out, although the mechanics might :)


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#22 Prefontaine

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 22:54

I recently went from using $20-40 joysticks with twist rudders for years to a full CH setup in preparation for BOS (and to play IL2 in the meantime). Although non of the components have the tension and resistance that real fighter HOTAS units have (or the Warthog for that matter), the precision and reliability more than make up for it. I'm very happy with my purchase, and think you will be too. 

 

On an unrelated note, I also just bought an Obutto Ozone, which is just awesome. Wonder how long until I can make another purchase without the wife killing me  :lol:


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#23 Haggart85

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 00:52

Not to derail this thread, but seeing all this commenting about FFB joysticks, I'm curious as to the FFB users' take on the Logitech G940? Aside from the obvious issues, is it worth the money or should one look more into obtaining the "holy grail" MSFFB2?

 

 

I recently went from using $20-40 joysticks with twist rudders for years to a full CH setup in preparation for BOS (and to play IL2 in the meantime). Although non of the components have the tension and resistance that real fighter HOTAS units have (or the Warthog for that matter), the precision and reliability more than make up for it. I'm very happy with my purchase, and think you will be too. 

 

On an unrelated note, I also just bought an Obutto Ozone, which is just awesome. Wonder how long until I can make another purchase without the wife killing me  :lol:

 

Care to post a quick review of the Obutto Ozone? I'm curious to how well it works with flight sims compared to it's more expensive partner, the Revolution.


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#24 Prefontaine

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 01:57

Not to derail this thread, but seeing all this commenting about FFB joysticks, I'm curious as to the FFB users' take on the Logitech G940? Aside from the obvious issues, is it worth the money or should one look more into obtaining the "holy grail" MSFFB2?

 

 

 

Care to post a quick review of the Obutto Ozone? I'm curious to how well it works with flight sims compared to it's more expensive partner, the Revolution.

 

I've only had it for a few days now, and I just got the flight sim attachments for it in the mail today, but even without that part it's been wonderful. The chair is quite comfortable (albeit definitely not geared toward "larger" folk, I'm 6'1" at 190 and although it handles my height well I can't imagine being comfortable width-wise if I was, say, 220+) and the build quality is great. The monitor mount ended up blocking the DVI input on my monitor (not the fault of Obutto, but rather just a non-standard back panel design on the part of Samsung) so I had to buy a block of wood to use as a spacer to essentially offset the mount vertically to allow all cables to attach to the back of the monitor without any problems. 

 

Although I can't comment on the revolution, given I've never owned it, I will say this -- for me personally, this product is perfect, and I feel it was worth every penny. Hope that helps! 


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#25 Haggart85

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 23:51

I've only had it for a few days now, and I just got the flight sim attachments for it in the mail today, but even without that part it's been wonderful. The chair is quite comfortable (albeit definitely not geared toward "larger" folk, I'm 6'1" at 190 and although it handles my height well I can't imagine being comfortable width-wise if I was, say, 220+) and the build quality is great. The monitor mount ended up blocking the DVI input on my monitor (not the fault of Obutto, but rather just a non-standard back panel design on the part of Samsung) so I had to buy a block of wood to use as a spacer to essentially offset the mount vertically to allow all cables to attach to the back of the monitor without any problems. 

 

Although I can't comment on the revolution, given I've never owned it, I will say this -- for me personally, this product is perfect, and I feel it was worth every penny. Hope that helps! 

 

Well thank you for the minireview! I'm 6'1" and 175 lbs, so I think I'd be fine, ha! What size monitor are you mounting on it? I've got a 24" but I'm curious if I should be thinking about just going for a larger monitor or just splurging for the 3 monitor setup down the road. Not that I want to overload you with questions, but you mention the flight sim attachments...did you get any of the other optional pieces, such as the acrylic tabletop?


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#26 Sokol1

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 01:05

In this question "CH HOTAS" X "Warthog" how important is this detail:

 

CH USB controller - 8 bits (256 positions).

Warthtog USB controller  - 14 bits (although allegedly used 3D HALL sensor is announced by maker as 12 bits)  16.384 positions (64x more).

 

Just numbers or are a noticeable improvement in precision (as "precision" consider put the gunsight piper over the enemy plane)?

 

A good explanation - of game point of view - abouth this "bits".

 

http://riseofflight....hp?f=49&t=26157

 

The guy argues that RoF rudder are not "dumbing down" in matter of DirectX resolution. And in the il-2:BoS?

 

Sokol1

 

 

 

 


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#27 Prefontaine

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 01:35

Well thank you for the minireview! I'm 6'1" and 175 lbs, so I think I'd be fine, ha! What size monitor are you mounting on it? I've got a 24" but I'm curious if I should be thinking about just going for a larger monitor or just splurging for the 3 monitor setup down the road. Not that I want to overload you with questions, but you mention the flight sim attachments...did you get any of the other optional pieces, such as the acrylic tabletop?


No problem bud. I have a 24" set up and although it'd be nice to have a bigger monitor, it does the job just fine and doesn't at all detract from the experience. The only add on I have is the flight stick mount, which is a nice addition, but I didn't go for the acrylic tabletop (not yet at least). It's definitely a personal preference thing with regard to 3 monitors vs 1 big one, so I can't help much on that -- sorry!
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#28 trumps

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 04:03

In this question "CH HOTAS" X "Warthog" how important is this detail:

 

CH USB controller - 8 bits (256 positions).

Warthtog USB controller  - 14 bits (although allegedly used 3D HALL sensor is announced by maker as 12 bits)  16.384 positions (64x more).

 

Just numbers or are a noticeable improvement in precision (as "precision" consider put the gunsight piper over the enemy plane)?

 

A good explanation - of game point of view - abouth this "bits".

 

http://riseofflight....hp?f=49&t=26157

 

The guy argues that RoF rudder are not "dumbing down" in matter of DirectX resolution. And in the il-2:BoS?

 

Sokol1

Mate, i really can not fault the CH gear on it's precision, it is beautiful to use, i have not tried the warthog but in all honesty would be extremely suprised if it proved to feel any more accurate in actual gameplay. A lot of numbers are chucked around in marketing and such, they all claim to revolutionize the world with the latest and greatest but when you actually test

them objectively back to back against the so called inferior product in game there is no noticable difference. I bet you will struggle to find a CH user that has ever had reason to complain about the accuracy and durability of their products over many many years of service. I know i may sound like a fan boy, but after 13+ years of faultless service with their product i feel i have every right to be, and they deserve the praise!


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#29 Haggart85

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:59

No problem bud. I have a 24" set up and although it'd be nice to have a bigger monitor, it does the job just fine and doesn't at all detract from the experience. The only add on I have is the flight stick mount, which is a nice addition, but I didn't go for the acrylic tabletop (not yet at least). It's definitely a personal preference thing with regard to 3 monitors vs 1 big one, so I can't help much on that -- sorry!

 

I'm content with my current monitor...I know if I want to go up to the 3 monitors, I'd need to upgrade my video card. That's probably the next big buy for me, but thank you for taking the time to answer my questions regarding the Ozone! :salute:


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#30 6S.Manu

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 08:56

X52-Pro owner here, but really I don't like it. Quality of material is real bad and the driver/software are the worst I've ever seen.

 

With my old PC sometimes the pot-meters would reset inflight and I got some issues with the build-in mouse.

 

After I update my rig that is what I have:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=-S-L6gc4HMs

 

I can add that the profile is not working correctly: I assign a keyboard key to the stick, the profile recognizing it, but then it don't work.

 

Of course, as the guy in the video says, the Saitek support is not helping at all. They are not going to fix it.

 

Since it's my second Saitek with issues, I'm going to buy a CH.


Edited by 6S.Manu, 09 August 2013 - 09:02.

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#31 SYN_Ricky

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 09:14

Since it's my second Saitek with issues, I'm going to buy a CH.

 

I had two X-45 before, I really liked the design and programming possibilities, but both developped pots problems (especially the rotaries) in about 2 years.

 

I decided then to get a CH Fighterstick, having heard so much about their durability. Haven't been disappointed since. I'm only missing a separate throttle for now, but with all the buttons I had no problems programming all I nedded for ROF and even for CloD.

 

On the other hand I'm really happy about my Saitek Pro rudder pedal, five years after I still encountered no problems with it.


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#32 Trupobaw

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 13:05

In this question "CH HOTAS" X "Warthog" how important is this detail:

 

CH USB controller - 8 bits (256 positions).

Warthtog USB controller  - 14 bits (although allegedly used 3D HALL sensor is announced by maker as 12 bits)  16.384 positions (64x more).

 

Just numbers or are a noticeable improvement in precision (as "precision" consider put the gunsight piper over the enemy plane)?

 

[...]

Sokol1

From what I've read of sticks in general and CH in particular, correct me if I'm wrong... 256 positions is enough - theorethically, in ideal contitions, given the precision of human hand. Try moving your stick 1/256th of it's full range (like, half of half of half of half of half of half of half of "full left" elevator :)  ) to see it's still quite  small movement. However, when your stick wears and potentiometers lose precision, the readings go off  by small margin and your stick registers somewhere close but not exactly where your hand is holding it. If it has 265 positions it quickly becomes noticable; if it has 16000 positions, the small errors are far less noticable to human - reading off by 64 points in 14 bit stick has the same effect as reading off by single point in 256 one. The last 6 bits (almost half of the range) are there to make sure that errors that would make 256-bit stick stumble wildly all over the spectrum are less noticable than a single bit error on 256 bit stick is. 

Thrustmaster solved the problem of wear and losing precision by 1) using Hall sensors to avoid physical wear and 2) using 14 bit scale to ensure small errors go unnoticable. CH solved the problem by using industrial quality potentiometers that don't wear and don't lose precision, to ensure there are no errors. To me, it was kind of Mercedes vs BMW debate, both offer excellent performance and it's up to your taste to decide which design philosophy you like more. To make decision harder they both copy functionality of the same real life stick. After long pondering of CH vs Warthog, I decided to go for FFB2   ;)


Edited by Trupobaw, 09 August 2013 - 13:16.

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#33 kestrel79

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 13:32

+1 for the CH Throttle Quadrant. Really adds a bunch more buttons and immersion with all the axis.


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#34 Trupobaw

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 13:42

One idea where Warthog leads is home cockpit buliding; you can detach the stand plate  and the grip from sensors part. This allows to easily prolong the grip (some people make the part for sale) and even attach the stand (minus the plate) to pillar shaped base in your simpit. 


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Intel Core i5-2550k 3.40 Ghz; RAM 8 Gb; Radeon 7800; WIndows 7 64bit, MS FFB2
 


#35 NastyDog

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 14:01

First hello to all hear on the forum

 

Me is verry new in playing flight sims so i need some help whit in future whit this game

coming from tatical realisum FPS to realisum flighing

 

I,am playing some war thunder fore the last copple of monhts

started from day 1 whit JS started in AB there and move on to FRB there .

Have started whit a Logitech Ex...pro 3 only already broke 1 now

some is looking fore a new set of JS ,after reading hear on the forum

i want to go fore a CH JS set

 

My first question is what is the difrents of this 2 ch js ,only the buttens or some more thinks ,what 1 is better to buy

 

CH Combatstick 568 USB

CH F-16 fighter stick USB

http://www.simw.com/hardware.html

 

My second question is what pedels i need to buy whit it CH or  Saitek Pro rudder pedals

 
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#36 SYN_Ricky

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 14:37

Fighterstick has more 4-way hats, allowing for more functions to be programmable.

 

You can use either Saitek or CH rudder, I never tried the CH ones, I'm pretty happy with the Saitek ones.


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#37 NastyDog

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 14:48

Fighterstick has more 4-way hats, allowing for more functions to be programmable.

 

You can use either Saitek or CH rudder, I never tried the CH ones, I'm pretty happy with the Saitek ones.

 

Thxx


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#38 6S.Manu

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 14:50

Ehi guys, what's about the CH software? I understand that keys are programmable but can I set macros? (press B, press A, release A, release B)


Edited by 6S.Manu, 13 August 2013 - 14:50.

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A whole generation of pilots learned to treasure the Spitfire for its delightful response to aerobatic manoeuvres and its handiness as a dogfighter.

It is odd that they had continued to esteem these qualities over those of other fighters in spite of the fact that they were of only secondary importance tactically.

Thus it is doubly ironic that it's reputation would habitually be established by reference to archaic, non-tactical criteria. - Darwin Spitfires by Anthony Cooper


#39 4SNero

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 15:03

Ehi guys, what's about the CH software? I understand that keys are programmable but can I set macros? (press B, press A, release A, release B)

 

Puoi farlo ma non e' cosi' immediato. In ogni caso se il sistema sara' simile a ROF o War Thunder le macro non saranno necessarie.


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QAVnk5LLPrg_zps35d79b41.jpg

 


#40 6S.Manu

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 15:06

Puoi farlo ma non e' cosi' immediato. In ogni caso se il sistema sara' simile a ROF o War Thunder le macro non saranno necessarie.

 

Thks!  :salute:


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A whole generation of pilots learned to treasure the Spitfire for its delightful response to aerobatic manoeuvres and its handiness as a dogfighter.

It is odd that they had continued to esteem these qualities over those of other fighters in spite of the fact that they were of only secondary importance tactically.

Thus it is doubly ironic that it's reputation would habitually be established by reference to archaic, non-tactical criteria. - Darwin Spitfires by Anthony Cooper





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